Balancing ideas; Orcs v Drakes and more

[JW]

Sigh...general ideas from a convo between me and Bece....lost last long post...here's the shortened version...

Idea 1: reduce Drake resistance to Impact
Effects:
---increase troll damage to drakes to be more effective
---increases HI and Wose damage to Drakes: inconsequential as HI and Woses are still bad recruits against the faction
---increases WC damage against Drake: may pose a problem

Idea 2: increase Troll resistance to Fire
Effects:
---reduced damage dealt to Trolls by Drakes: Trolls become slightly more useful against Drakes
---reduced damage taken against Pillager: inconsequential
---reduced damage taken against Mages: potentially a major problem

Idea 3: increase Naga resistance to Cold
Effects:
---reduced damage taken Ghost and Adept: more useful against Undead
---reduced damage taken from Augr: more useful against Drakes
---reduced damage taken from Sorceress: inconsequential

Idea 4: decrease Merman resistance to Cold
Effects:
---increased damage taken Ghost and Adept: potential problem
---increased damage taken from Augr: Drakes have a better chance in water against the fish
---increased damage taken from Sorceress: inconsequential

Idea 5: decrease Merman resistance to Fire
Effects:
---increased damage taken by Drakes: Drakes have a better chance in water against the fish
---increased damage taken by Pillager: inconsequential
---increased damage taken by Mages: potential problem?

Discuss and vote for what you think would be a good change. Note: poll has no effect on actually changing the game. It is purely for informational purposes.

[Noyga]

Idea 1: reduce Drake resistance to Impact

Can makes sense IMHO. I always wondered why it is so high.

Idea 2: increase Troll resistance to Fire

Given their background of being trolls, i'd rather see them as weak to fire than fire-resistant. I think they are ok as they are currently.

Idea 3: increase Naga resistance to Cold

IMHO, for background reasons, the Naga should stay cold-vulnerable.
Btw i could see them with a little (say 10%) fire resistance.

Idea 4: decrease Merman resistance to Cold

It can make sense, btw the cold resistance also makes sense for background reasons.

Idea 5: decrease Merman resistance to Fire

I think it isn't necessary and might cause more problems than its solves.

Discuss and vote for what you think would be a good change. Note: poll has no effect on actually changing the game. It is purely for informational purposes.

IMHO none of those changes are necessary.
I voted #1 which make the most sense and could be the more interesting change.

[Doc Paterson]

I voted #1 which make the most sense and could be the more interesting change.

Drakes have resistance to impact because they have strong, durable ("armored") bodies. The 20 percent has always seemed perfect balance-wise in my opinion, and I don't think it should be messed with.

JW, you and Bec should discuss this with me and the MP Devs on irc(mainly because discussing it here probably won't be very productive). To the best of my knowledge, it's not the group's consensus that this match is even a problem. I'm open to being convinced otherwise of course.

[kav]

None of those change particularly sit well with me. What were you talking about that prompted these ideas?

[jb]

Well I don’t remember any of these discussions, how old is this conversation?

1. Drake impact resist is fine.
- Don’t forget about grunts low swing/high dam attacks. Low %def drakes are perfect targets for them. Also, fighting drakes increases the value of their level 0 units significantly.
-If you feel sorry for HI and Wose…don’t forget about Spearman/Bowman and Elf archers.

2. Troll fire resist is fine. With a 1/3 chance of having 50HP (str/res)….trolls have the body to withstand these attacks….Trolls are beasts to take down…and mages need to deal good fire damage to them.

3. I would agree that a small (10%) increase would make sense here. Swimming in that deep water is cold…they should be used to it.

4. Merman cold resist is fine. To give drakes a better chance, I support raising the glider def to 40% on all terrain, including water. This would be enough for them to take water villages and have some added value as a unit overall.

5. I have no vote here. Seems to be fine the way it is already.

[Sapient]

As you can tell by following the links in my profile, I've been arguing for changes to merman/naga resists for quite some time now. The naga is a slightly inferior water unit because of the resistance imbalance.

[Becephalus]

I didn't know there was going to be a thread, but since there is I might as well put my 2 cents in.

My general concerns here are as follows. First it is that the loyalists are like a swiss army faction. They have IMO the best units for "counter recruiting" of any faction. The sole thing that balances this is their horrible moves/movetype.

But even given that movetype I would think they are clearly superior vs drakes to orcs.

Granted the following comparisons are not the ideal way of balancing things, but I think when taken as a group they are indicative...

Melee
For fighting drakes would you rather have 7 grunts or 6 spearman? I don't think there is much doubt here?

Ranged/anti saurian
Would you rather have 4 bowman and 4 mages or 10 orc archers? This is a tossup.

Water units
Would you rather have 5 naga or 5 merman? No doubt which is better vs drakes.

Specialty units
Would you rather have 23 assasins or 17 horseman? Also think this is clearly loyalist advantage.

Now granted there are always a million caveats to all this. On a small map the balance is probably fine, or on a map with tons and tons of hills (which there are not because of the way it impacts dwarves). Now I think mostof the faction matchups are as balanced as they are going to be. I hink the only real problmeatic ones left are three involving drakes:


Loyals too strong vs drake slightly

Undead vs drakes is just a crazy mess although doesn't favor one side or the other

Orc is too weak vs drakes slightly

All of the above is of course highly map dependant and hinges greatly on the ability of the drakes to isolate portions of the enemy army. And I don't think any of the matchups are "broken" or anything.

I do think that if you told a player they were going to be fighting drakes and asked what faction they wanted orcs would be last on the list and loyalists first or second?

The merman/naga resist thing has bothered me forever because it is the exact oppisite would it should be for balance IMO. As for unit concepts I could care less, so many of the units stats are nonsensical and hinge on the descriptions as is. There are snakes that do well in cold water and fish that don't.

There is the added difficulty for northerners of being chaotic, and having a hard time forcing the drakes to combat on many maps. Of course if your opponent isn't so good you can trap him or get him to stay into the night. But imagine playing yourself. Loyalists generally will meet the drakes on even footing ToD wise, northerners have a much harder time ensuring this.

Right now with orcs you can what, mass grunts and archers throwing in an assasin or two?


All and all I think it is a rather small issue, but it is one IMO, and I have believed so for at least 9 months? Nothing in that time has convinced me otherwise.

[JW]

These were just ideas that we tossed around last night as we played several games on the server. There were a few strategical points that Bece brought up that I thought could use some discussion. One of those points is the Naga v Merman issue.

The Impact resistance I figured would not be a big deal if it was decreased by 10% on all Drakes, because it wouldn't affect damages that much...it turns out I was wrong:

Whelps at night and S-Whelps at dawn/night would deal +1 damage to non-Clashers. S-Whelps at day and Whelps at day/dawn would deal +1 damage to Clashers. This itself is not a big deal.

HI would deal +2 damage to non-Clashers at day and +1 to Clashers however. This actually might be the biggest problem with the proposal. It would help Loyalists against Drakes more than it does Northerners - the reason why the change was proposed - and Loyalists definitely don't need help against Drakes.

Well, I might jump on IRC sometime.

I guess the idea of increasing the Naga Fire resistance didn't come to me, but that might be an interesting proposal as well.

[Sapient]

1) Bec is overestimating the utility of horsemen and mages vs. Drakes and underestimating the utility of assassins. This takes care of "Ranged" and "Specialty" objection.

2) The "Melee" objection begins to disappear when you consider that the grunt melee damage is augmented by goblin spearmen melee damage (which is even cheaper)

3) Personally, I'd rather see Nagas have a fire weakness than a cold weakness. Then put the cold weakness to the mermen to even things out. That takes care of "Water" objection.

(You can probably tell from reading this that I think Undead v. Northerner is more problematic than Drake v. Northerner.)

Drake v. Northerner is fine IMO.

[Doc Paterson]

For fighting drakes would you rather have 7 grunts or 6 spearman?[/i] I don't think there is much doubt here?

Are you assuming, for the sake of the comparison, that the Loy spearmen are chaotic?

If I know I'll be fighting the drakes at night, when the big tanks are powered down, I'll take the 7 grunts.

The comparison is just a bit wiggitywack because the spearmen, while more potent against the Drakes, have to fight them during the day, when they'll recieve large retaliation damage. With the grunts, you hit during the night, do massive damage, and ensure that the Drakes don't live to see the day. They can run, yes, but the Northerner movement over hills makes pursuit quite viable- Drakes can't retreat as effectively from them as they can from, say, Loyalists. If they give up villages, a resilient grunt makes an excellent occupier.

[Doc Paterson]

1) Bec is overestimating the utility of horsemen and mages

No, I really don't think he is "overestimating" here.

[Sapient]

1) Bec is overestimating the utility of horsemen and mages

No, I really don't think he is "overestimating" here.

So, in other words, you agree with his assertion that Loyalists are better against Drakes than Northerners in the "Special" and "Ranged" category? Interesting.

The 23 assasins vs. 17 horseman comparison is completely bogus, BTW, because multiple poison doesn't stack.

[Becephalus]

So, in other words, you agree with his assertion that Loyalists are better against Drakes than Northerners in the "Special" and "Ranged" category? Interesting.

The 23 assasins vs. 17 horseman comparison is completely bogus, BTW, because multiple poison doesn't stack.

I never said they were better in ranged. I said it was a tossup.

And obviously I am just trying to say equal gold. Like if you were fighting drakes on a sruvival map.

And you can get 4 horseman (92)or 5 assasins (85)

or 4 bowman and 4 mages vs 10 orc archers?

The whole key here is not to imagine a game wher eyou are stomping some noob. It is to imagine a game where you are playing yourself or soliton or doc playing drakes. And ask yourself which roster of units you would really rather have.

And I don't think it has to be this way. Against most factions I literally have zero preference, none whatsoever.

[Becephalus]

Are you assuming, for the sake of the comparison, that the Loy spearmen are chaotic?

If I know I'll be fighting the drakes at night, when the big tanks are powered down, I'll take the 7 grunts.

The comparison is just a bit wiggitywack because the spearmen, while more potent against the Drakes, have to fight them during the day, when they'll recieve large retaliation damage. With the grunts, you hit during the night, do massive damage, and ensure that the Drakes don't live to see the day. They can run, yes, but the Northerner movement over hills makes pursuit quite viable- Drakes can't retreat as effectively from them as they can from, say, Loyalists. If they give up villages, a resilient grunt makes an excellent occupier.

I think this is much harder to ensure against equal quality opponent than you realize. I don't think grunts can really force the issue on most maps, if the drakes dont want to fight them they dont have to. I could be wrong but thats my impression. And you have the corresponding weakness during day, where you are near impotent.

[Sapient]

The whole key here is not to imagine a game wher eyou are stomping some noob. It is to imagine a game where you are playing yourself or soliton or doc playing drakes. And ask yourself which roster of units you would really rather have.

Personally? I'd rather have Northerners. Horseman deal a ton of damage but they are just too unreliable-- if they miss you may have to change your entire strategy and this means shifting your front line, which can be quite costly.