Heavy Infantryman Pwn3d

Post by **turin** » October 8th, 2006, 8:53 pm

Yogi Bear wrote:There is a really easy way to solve this: Let's try. Cuddlefish plays dwarves, one of the good players loyalists. Then we will see if recruiting HI is a bad idea or not. How about that instead of pointless "i am right and you don't know what you are talking about"?

The good players shouldn't have to waste time on every single person who thinks the game is unbalanced because they don't understand the strategy.

Post by **Noyga** » October 8th, 2006, 10:38 pm

appleide wrote:Appleide covers himself in ice, runs in.
Soliton wrote: The problem you're having is that you simply state things without any arguments backing it up as if it was the most obvious thing in the world. Maybe it is to you, however if you want to have any chance in convincing someone else you better back your statements up.

CuddleFish wrote:a dwarf fighter can stand toe to toe against a HI at anytime except for daytime, dwarf fighters are cheaper, have better defense %, and have a better movement type

And ???
Except on hill and mountains an HI would survive longer than a dwarf fighter from enemies without impact, cold and fire, ie most enemies...

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 9th, 2006, 10:38 am

Noyga wrote:Except on hill and mountains an HI would survive longer than a dwarf fighter from enemies without impact, cold and fire, ie most enemies...

Most?

A quick count reveals that out of the recruitable units in Default, about 16 can bypass HI resistances, while 25 cannot. Furthermore, each faction against which the Loyalists might be placed has at least two units with impact, fire, or cold attacks.

Also, "Except on hills and mountains" is a pretty big exception.

A HI has 20% more resistance than the Dwarf to Blade and Pierce, but the Dwarf has 20% more to Fire and Cold and 10% more to Impact. Dwarf Fighters are also much more mobile than HI, moving faster on mountains, hills, forest, shallow water, swamp, tundra, cave, sand, and fungus, while being just as fast as the HI on all other terrains. The Dwarf has more defense on village, cave, shallow water, swamp, sand, mountains, castle, and hills. Otherwise, its defense is equal to the HI except for a 10% loss on forest.

CuddleFish · Post by **CuddleFish** » October 10th, 2006, 5:14 pm

problem:
some devs think they are gods, they react violently to anyone with a different opinion

and to stay on topic, imo the only place where knalgans have trouble beating loyalists is on rumble maps, where HI have 50% def (insane)...

Tomsik · Post by **Tomsik** » October 10th, 2006, 5:29 pm

CuddleFish wrote:some devs think they are gods, they react violently to anyone with a different opinion

Don't feed the troll.

Post by **Noy** » October 10th, 2006, 5:41 pm

No Cuddlefish, thats not it. Devs get really pissed off when people come in here and tell them what to do, when its obvious that you don't have a grasp of the game. You have never stated any facts, you just throw around statements and claim that they are fact. People have challenged you to prove your claims like playing a couple of games, but I've seen no response out of you at all. You still haven't answered my question Cuddledfish:

What other unit requires five units to kill at minimum as a faction's best counter?

I'll give you an answer, none. And that how many thunderers it took to attack a HI. I'm the one who made this change, after playing probably 20+ games, where loyalists almost always won because the HI was completely unassailable by dwarvish attacks. I brought it forward and the three mp devs agreed that it was a serious problem, so we made the change.

Also most people who have something useful to say, ask it in a constructive manner, which you most certainly do not. They don't go and say what you did in a condecending way. Crying moderators are unfair, probably makes it less likely anybody will take you seriously at all.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 10th, 2006, 7:50 pm

Noy wrote:What other unit requires five units to kill at minimum as a faction's best counter?

Dwarvish Fighter against Northerners (except at Night and in bad defense), or Dwarvish Guardsman against lots of things, or Skeleton or Skeleton Archer against other Undead.

(although, I must say, I do agree with Tomsik...

)

Post by **Noy** » October 10th, 2006, 8:15 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Noy wrote:What other unit requires five units to kill at minimum as a faction's best counter?
Dwarvish Fighter against Northerners (except at Night and in bad defense), or Dwarvish Guardsman against lots of things, or Skeleton or Skeleton Archer against other Undead.

(although, I must say, I do agree with Tomsik... )

Those are not the "best counters." Although this is a multiplayer question, so maybe the whole concept of factional balance might go over your head.

Post by **Dragonking** » October 10th, 2006, 8:18 pm

Ok, to just stop this pointless (imho) topic, I'm going to say one thing:

We balance factions, not units.

Thank you, have a good day.

I agree with Tomsik as well.

appleide · Post by **appleide** » October 11th, 2006, 5:28 am

Noy wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: Dwarvish Fighter against Northerners (except at Night and in bad defense), or Dwarvish Guardsman against lots of things, or Skeleton or Skeleton Archer against other Undead.

(although, I must say, I do agree with Tomsik... )

Those are not the "best counters." Although this is a multiplayer question, so maybe the whole concept of factional balance might go over your head.

So what about dwarvish guardsman vs Northeners? The assasin is the only way I can think of to deal with him, and you need to support the assasin with grunts/trolls too, to be able to remove the guardsman. i'd say it will take 3-4 Northeners over two turns to take out one guardsman in a village or maybe mountain.

(just so I dont get mistaken for condescending... I'll give everyone a smilie face :

)

Agrees with tomsik

JW · Post by JW » October 11th, 2006, 6:49 am

appleide wrote:So what about dwarvish guardsman vs Northeners? The assasin is the only way I can think of to deal with him, and you need to support the assasin with grunts/trolls too, to be able to remove the guardsman. i'd say it will take 3-4 Northeners over two turns to take out one guardsman in a village or maybe mountain.

(just so I dont get mistaken for condescending... I'll give everyone a smilie face : )

Agrees with tomsik

Archers, Apple?

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 11th, 2006, 10:09 am

JW wrote:Archers, Apple?

You fancy killing it with 5-2 at your best time of day? If you want to kill it in one turn, you need to surround it with six archers at Night when it's on 30% defense and it's still not a very sure thing. If you only want to use three archers to one guardsman, it'll take you at least two turns and if it's on a village or mountain like Applide suggested, it'll take you much longer - four turns for just the mountain, and that's assuming that it stays Night for four turns in a row! On the flip side, in those four turns, the Guardsman should be able to kill one of the Archers.

It seems to me that assassins are indeed the way to go against guardsmen.

Post by **Dragonking** » October 11th, 2006, 10:39 am

Elvish Pillager wrote:
JW wrote:Archers, Apple?
You fancy killing it with 5-2 at your best time of day?

What 5-2? 4-2 at day, 6-2 at dawn/dusk, 7-2 at night.

Elvish Pillager wrote: It seems to me that assassins are indeed the way to go against guardsmen.

They are.

appleide · Post by **appleide** » October 11th, 2006, 11:59 am

Dragonking wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: It seems to me that assassins are indeed the way to go against guardsmen.
They are.

Incidentally the Guardsman is the second best counter in the Knalgan factions against the assasin. (3 attacks blade.). So you'd need more than a single assasin to take out the guardsman. And if you want to kill the guardsman in a single turn, the assasin is utterly useless. You'll have to resort to using 6 orcish archers... Or 6 grunts/trolls if you got heaps of money to spend.

800th post ><

Post by **Dragonking** » October 11th, 2006, 12:17 pm

Oh my....

appleide: assassin = poison ; poison => dead guardsman.
This is a reason why assassin is a must when you are facing guard - not _only_ assassins, but one assassin to poison it and OR prevent form healing in village OR let guard lose 8hp per turn.

And there is no such thing as 'killing guardsman in one turn' in 95% of the cases.