Draugr

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

User avatar
Thrawn
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2047
Joined: June 2nd, 2005, 11:37 am
Location: bridge of SSD Chimera

Post by Thrawn »

Dragonking wrote:
toms wrote: Umm, why is the dragoon so much overpowered that you have to increase the XP require of the cavalry and also decrease the dragoon´s strength? :?
Um.. We don't know why it was so much overpowered ( maybe because someone made it so long time ago? ).

But we also decrease its ranged attack from 15-1 to 12-1. It should be fine now.
he means how... it seems that it would have to be really overpowered to have three weakening measures, and wondereing why it has been considered overpowered.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
User avatar
Dragonking
Inactive Developer
Posts: 591
Joined: November 6th, 2004, 10:45 am
Location: Poland

Post by Dragonking »

Thrawn wrote:he means how... it seems that it would have to be really overpowered to have three weakening measures, and wondereing why it has been considered overpowered.
I know what he means ;-p

Let's see... cavalery with 6-3 ( 18 ) meele and good resistances (except pierce) and 38 hp...

It (easly) advances to 7-4 ( 28 ) + 15-1 (15) [overall 43] monster with same nice reistances and 53hp ... oh and it is fast (even faster than lvl1).

Now let's think why it was considered as overpowered... maybe because it is running 7-4 blade killer with 9 movement? Maybe because ranged damage (which appears out of nowhere btw) is great way to deal significant damage to any ranged piercing unit willing to attack it?

Sure - it doesn't have great defense - but its resistances are simmilar to dwarvish ones.

That's why we decided to rebalance it. Quite simple if you ask me.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit
User avatar
Cuyo Quiz
Posts: 1777
Joined: May 21st, 2005, 12:02 am
Location: South America

Post by Cuyo Quiz »

But the Cavalier still kicks ass, right?.

Wow, 66hp, now that is some Draug love.
Btw, I nearly always level Skeleton Fighters into Revenants.
Those 8hp difference prove worthy as i go reckless sometimes.
Cuyo Quiz,where madness meets me :D
Turn on, tune in, fall out.
"I know that, but every single person nags about how negative turin is; it should be in the FPI thread "Turin should give positive comments" =)"-Neorice,23 Sep 2004
User avatar
Thrawn
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2047
Joined: June 2nd, 2005, 11:37 am
Location: bridge of SSD Chimera

Post by Thrawn »

Dragonking wrote:
Thrawn wrote:he means how... it seems that it would have to be really overpowered to have three weakening measures, and wondereing why it has been considered overpowered.
I know what he means ;-p

...{explanation}
That's why we decided to rebalance it. Quite simple if you ask me.
I did as well, and it really annoyed me to play against, just explaining the other person.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
SmokemJags
Posts: 580
Joined: February 14th, 2006, 3:24 am
Location: New Avalon
Contact:

Post by SmokemJags »

* increased HP of the Draug from 54 to 66
* increased melee damage of the Draug from 11-4 to 12-4
* increased cost of the Draug from 40 to 50
At 66 HP, I hope you have some major holy or fire damage when you meet up against this tank.

I'm glad to see he hasn't been forgotten, and that there are several other interestings changes... if I may suggest a couple of additions:

Mage level 1: Experience=60
That seems a bit steep for me... Highest for any level one unit if I'm not mistaken. Considering they have 2x hp with quick on them it's a bit too much if you ask me. To kill roughly 7-8 units without taking about 30 points of damage? Not exactly feasible unless you really, really, REALLY baby them in a campaign.
Having to nurse weak mages? Fine. But nurse them that much? Maybe something like... 48 xp is more reasonable?
Also I always wondered why the mage starts out as lawful instead of neutral. Seems to me the 'damage' tree for mages are all neutral while the 'healing' tree is lawful... so why is the level 1 which has no healing and is pretty much a damage counter against things with high resistances lawful?

Also on the draug... leadership? It's not exactly a typical feature of the undead, but I thought it would make a nice addition. (Think skeleton captain). Unless there is some unspoken rule about no UD leadership.
Last edited by SmokemJags on March 1st, 2006, 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
"A wise man speaks when he has something to say. A fool speaks when he has to say something."
scott
Posts: 5243
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: San Pedro, CA

Post by scott »

SmokemJags wrote:Unless there is some unspoken rule about no UD leadership.
Nail: "ow! stop hitting me! That's my head"
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.
Anyar
Posts: 191
Joined: July 25th, 2005, 9:18 pm
Location: MI

Post by Anyar »

66 isnt really that great for a level 3. But given that it has huge resistances to most melee attacks, it can deal good damage while taking less, but IMHO it doesnt make up for its weak attack. As for mages, that is why you will probably see intelligent mages outnumber others if you play campaigns.
Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers. - Muhammed
User avatar
Noyga
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 5:56 pm
Location: France

Post by Noyga »

SmokemJags wrote: Also on the draug... leadership? It's not exactly a typical feature of the undead, but I thought it would make a nice addition. (Think skeleton captain). Unless there is some unspoken rule about no UD leadership.
If we want leadership, i'd rather add the Death Knight as an alternative to the Draug, but with 11-4 melee instead of its current 12-4 for melee so we would have a real choice (currently the Death Knight is equal or more powerful than the Draug, except for resistances).

Btw leadership seems a little strange with undead.
User avatar
JW
Posts: 5046
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

Some factions would just be ridiculous with leadership. Cmon, would you want to face a Dark Adept at night who is in front of a level 3 leader?

Same thing with dwarves. Neither faction needs leadership. And no, no other faction is going to get Berserk either.
SmokemJags
Posts: 580
Joined: February 14th, 2006, 3:24 am
Location: New Avalon
Contact:

Post by SmokemJags »

Cmon, would you want to face a Dark Adept at night who is in front of a level 3 leader?
Considering it has no melee attack, sure why not.
I could bring up plenty of undead leaders (Army of Darkness for one) but it's not really something I'm dead set on having in the game.
But I get the point. If anything the death knight would be the one to have leadership, but even that's not likely.

So that's that. What about the mage though? The idea that they rely heavily on having the intelligence trait seems to be a bit of a drag.
"A wise man speaks when he has something to say. A fool speaks when he has to say something."
scott
Posts: 5243
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: San Pedro, CA

Post by scott »

The Death Squire has leadership. No joke. The Death Knight would be absolutely horrible to face if it had leadership.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.
SmokemJags
Posts: 580
Joined: February 14th, 2006, 3:24 am
Location: New Avalon
Contact:

Post by SmokemJags »

It's an unofficial campaign unit.
Where's the Death Squire from? What campaign is it in and what level is it?
Wesnoth already have the undead version of the lieutenant, the Death Squire, and the undead version of the general, the Death Knight. Maybe this could be the undead version of the Grand Marshal.
Personally I like the idea of having it be horrible to go against a Death Knight with leadership.
That just sound good.
"A death knight with leadership would be horrible to face."
He should be horrible. Mortifying, stupefying, terrifying!
"A wise man speaks when he has something to say. A fool speaks when he has to say something."
scott
Posts: 5243
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 12:35 am
Location: San Pedro, CA

Post by scott »

I can imagine your boy giving a play-by-play about how the revenants killed Delfador even faster with a Death Knight leading them. That's mostly what I had in mind in not wanting it. The Death Squire is in Liberty, but it's only about 98% serious.
Hope springs eternal.
Wesnoth acronym guide.
Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1680
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Post by Soliton »

Well, infact the Death Knight has leadership and had it ever since. Nevertheless there is some kind of agreement that leadership doesn't really fit the Undead.
Also some user made factions do have units with berserk and I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that.

I did change the Death Knight according to Noyga's proposal btw.

About the mages, I think it's ok for them to have a high XP requirement, they are arguably one of the best attackers in the game. Still we might tone that down a bit or increase requirement for units like the Dark Adept as well. In general XP requirement is something that is least consistent across units so far I'd say.
Making the mages neutral would be quite a change in their usage and as they are in 2 factions and often crucial units to break through enemy lines I'm not so sure if that's a good idea. However maybe we could differentiate the 2 mages through their alignment?
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
SmokemJags
Posts: 580
Joined: February 14th, 2006, 3:24 am
Location: New Avalon
Contact:

Post by SmokemJags »

If we want leadership, i'd rather add the Death Knight as an alternative to the Draug, but with 11-4 melee instead of its current 12-4 for melee so we would have a real choice
By changing him according to this proposal... You mean it goes like:
Skeleton -> Revenant -> Draug or Death Knight

So revenants can become death knights? I like the sound of that. I'd suggest draug is the equalivant of the Elf Champion(better hp and damage) while the death knight is the Elf Marshal(less hp, less damage, leadership) but I don't think anyone wants to see undead with leadership.

I'd like to see a slight toning down for the mage, I don't know about making units like the dark adept require more experience though.

I'm glad we're sensible people and realize that day/night and lawful/neutral makes a big difference. *cough*
What did you mean by...
However maybe we could differentiate the 2 mages through their alignment?
"A wise man speaks when he has something to say. A fool speaks when he has to say something."
Post Reply