New stuff, new methods, new music (6/3)

[yobbo]

Ahh, sorry I think melody was the wrong word. I meant the string part that comes in around 3:10 playing multiple repeated notes until 3:40 or so. If the strings weren't meant to be a major part of this section then they probably need to be toned down a bit. But then, well... I like them .

In any case, my instrument recognition is horribly rusty. I could probably only name about 2/3 of the instruments in an orchestra by ear. So re: the tuba... well yeah I'd still say it needs more bite .

[West]

Very nice. I must say I'm starting to like this piece a lot. Yes, it has problems, but nothing that can't be fixed with a bit of work. I really love the part at 3:08 -- I'm a sucker for doubling melodies with the glocken myself.

However:

- The biggest problem with the piece right now, something that absolutely POSITIVELY must be fixed, is the percussion. The piece is too long to have the same exact percussion pattern going on (almost) throughout. It gets annoying to the point of distracting me from the rest of the music. After a few minutes, all I hear is bam-bam-bam-BAM-bam-bam-badabada-etc. Also, since the timpani/toms (can't really tell which) is a bit too high in the mix, they clash with the low strings. I can't really hear what the celli and basses are doing most of the time. Actually, I would like you to mute the timpani/toms and render a version without them. That way I can give you better feedback on the rest of the arrangement.

- The flute at 0:49-50 plays an F while some other instruments close to its range are playing an E. Bit of an ugly tension happening there.

- The ending of the horn phrase at 1:50 feels too abrupt.

- Uh... is that an electric bass that comes in around 2:40?? edit: or is that what you say is supposed to be a tuba? Yikes.

- The pause at 4:07 -- is it intentional? If so, accent it with a cymbal roll or some other metal percussion so it sounds like you mean it.

- The reverb you're using is... weird. Most of the time it's barely audible, I can only hear it on the glocken and some woodwinds.

- Use the tam-tam more sparingly, try cymbals instead.

- You need to work more with variation in dynamics and texture. Louder, softer, denser, sparser. That would make the arrangement more interesting and alive. Right now it uses a similar instrumentation and dynamic level from beginning to end.

i definitely agree with the piece sounding bored and a little flat. that's more than anything because of the amount of work it would take to balance 25-odd parts after recording in dynamics changes for each;

Actually, balancing everything shouldn't be that hard. Isn't there a proper mixer in Reason?

i'm considering rewiring the whole thing to get strings on one mixer, woodwind on another, brass on another etc so that i can fade sections more easily, but again, that's going to be a chore... probably has to be done.

Yes, it probably has to be done. Submixes FTW.

I'm presently downloading the demo version of Reason. It's hard helping you make the most of it when I have no idea how it works, so I'm going to play around with it a bit and see if I can come up with any suggestions.

[[PA] NotUncleDave]

i've never been able to effectively use percussion/drums. i don't know why, my most irritating habit is tapping out rhythms on anything, everywhere, and in exactly the wrong situation but i'm probably going to have to find some "for dummies" tutorial on it to make it not suck and be horribly repetitive. on the other hand, it's kind of hypnotically irritating.

i'm very, very aware of the problem of the flatness, but the pause you mentioned, won't be in the final piece. that's going to be filled up with more stuff, to make it a complete loop. point being that the "bit of work" (underestimating much) is something i know has to be dealt with, but i was getting to the point where i was ceasing to care; now i've got more opinions on it, i can put a new spurt in and try to fix it up.

reverb... there's one. one device, and i honestly don't have much idea how to get the best out of it; hopefully when you get the demo downloaded you can advise me on this, because i'm pretty stumped as to exactly how to use it.

so right now, or in the next couple of days, or something- i'll rewire the whole thing. there is a mixer in reason, but i don't know how to set groups of faders to work as one, and have no experience with orchestral mixing... oh boy, fun...

[West]

i've never been able to effectively use percussion/drums. i don't know why, my most irritating habit is tapping out rhythms on anything, everywhere, and in exactly the wrong situation but i'm probably going to have to find some "for dummies" tutorial on it to make it not suck and be horribly repetitive. on the other hand, it's kind of hypnotically irritating.

Percussion is hard. I'm not terribly good at it myself either, so I don't know how much help I can be. One thing to keep in mind though is that in orchestral music -- unlike a rock song -- there's no need to have the percussion playing all the time. In fact, it's not even desirable. Use the percussion as a ways of accenting and enhancing the melodic passages. There doesn't have to be a steady pulse throughout the piece, unless you intend people to dance to it. Drake ballet? Hmmm.

i'm very, very aware of the problem of the flatness, but the pause you mentioned, won't be in the final piece. that's going to be filled up with more stuff, to make it a complete loop. point being that the "bit of work" (underestimating much) is something i know has to be dealt with, but i was getting to the point where i was ceasing to care; now i've got more opinions on it, i can put a new spurt in and try to fix it up.

Well, do what you have to do, but don't give up on it. If you feel you're starting to hate the tune, take a break from it and work on something else.

reverb... there's one. one device, and i honestly don't have much idea how to get the best out of it; hopefully when you get the demo downloaded you can advise me on this, because i'm pretty stumped as to exactly how to use it.

I've only looked briefly at the demo so far, but I must say that Reason witout at doubt wins the prestigious STUPID GUI OF THE YEAR(TM) award. But then again, depends on what you're used to. But hell, you can't even maximize the darn thing. :/

so right now, or in the next couple of days, or something- i'll rewire the whole thing. there is a mixer in reason, but i don't know how to set groups of faders to work as one, and have no experience with orchestral mixing... oh boy, fun...

As mentioned, please create a percussion-less mixdown. If you don't want to share it with everyone, just PM me a link. It would really make it easier for me to give feedback on the instrumentation (plus it'll let me play around a bit with percussion ideas so I can give you some suggestions).

[vonHalenbach]

Not bad, but it needs more cowbell.



The only cure against fever is more cowbell.

[West]

Not bad, but it needs more cowbell.



The only cure against fever is more cowbell.

I don't normally use this overused acronym, but: LOL

[[PA] NotUncleDave]

i hope i can be forgiven for bumping this, but i dumped what would be this post into the OP

[Sapient]

This sounds really nice; I think it is a big improvement from the original piece and you struck a nice balance with the different elements. I think it would work well for battle as well.

[[PA] NotUncleDave]

Thanks- I've worked on it a bit more, and it's coming a lot more naturally than the Drake fiasco.

I think I figured out the problems with it, despite being gently and not-so-gently told them and barely listening before- richness of texture is all well and good, but it loses its impact if all you have are different instruments playing different parts with the texture either similar or reminiscent of everything else. It gets dull, and starts to sound stodgy, and that makes me care less, making getting any kind clarity back out of it a chore.

Not happening again. If it starts to, yell at me, failing that, violence.

I'm not going to abandon it, but I think I need to make something a little easier on my ears to give myself some perspective.

The OP's been updated again, with a more proper-sounding version of that doodle.

Or you can not read it and Click here to listen!

[Jetrel]

By and large, this is incredibly good - the only thing about it that seems slightly "fake" is the horn that comes in at 1:20 or so, and mostly because it's so impossibly smooth. Not making it louder, but just giving it some of the texture that blaring brass tends to have would make it sound a lot better, IMO.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, of course.

[Sapient]

I'm not going to abandon it, but I think I need to make something a little easier on my ears to give myself some perspective.

The OP's been updated again, with a more proper-sounding version of that doodle.

Um... what happened to the last music you posted? This revision sounds totally different, and it doesn't sound as good in my opinion. Can you post the old link for comparison purposes?

[yobbo]

Heh, this really is nothing like the original . But the production is much nicer in the latest version. A few things I noticed:

The drums all through could use a little more reverb to extend them and make them sound fuller.

I like the flute.

The horn that comes in around 1:20 sounds really muted and muddy. I'm not sure how you would fix this, but it feels like it has the same problem as most of your original "Flight of the Drakes" piece did, which you've definitely fixed with the other instruments. It's also really really out of tune when it plays higher notes.... e.g. 1:42 - 1:48

The violin that plays from about 2:30 is way over the top... it needs to calm down a bit and be more soft and expressive. The constant vibrato is too much! As are the explosive attacks.

[[PA] NotUncleDave]

still paying attention and working on it- toying with a new distortion device to brass up the horn, fleshing out the percussion a bit more, messing with some more powerful brass, de-muddying, and trying not to fall into another rut

Sapient- thanks, and that part will be back, but it's not easy to move off for me right now. I'd rather put down a bunch of different ideas first, and then work it in later, instead of trying to center the whole piece around it- because of what happened with the drake piece. i'll grab a link for the first version in a sec.

Jet- you'll like the distortion on the horn. gives it some nice kick

yobbo- yeah, i noticed. the solo violin samples are variable, and the best ones are the more intense velocity. drums have been verbed up a little since that version.

i'm also putting in a cameo of one of the more memorable wesnoth themes- it's probably opening a whole can of worms there, but it's not something that defines my piece (it's just a passing nod, you'll know it when you hear it), so i'm hoping things won't get too complicated. i should probably check who made that

[West]

[PA] NotUncleDave, when posting entirely new music, please post it in a new thread. This thread has become completely confusing now, with several posts commenting music that isn't there anymore. In fact I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be commenting on... assuming it's the "New thingy" piece, here goes:

First of all let me say that your samples sound a whole lot better now. The solo flute is very nice and the violin that comes in at the end is absolutely awesome! :O

However, this doesn't sound like orchestral music to me. Don't get me wrong, I definitely like it, I just have a hard time picturing an orchestra playing this. The aural landscape is too spacious and high tech, too "studio" if you know what I mean. It gives me no feeling of being a live piece. Also, it has certain elements that sound very synthy, particularly the repeating flute-ish sound that comes in at 1:13 and the following horn theme. It sounds like an analog brass patch, not real horns. Partly due to the soft, unmodulated sound and partly the slightly complex melodies. Keep in mind that french horns aren't the most agile instruments of the brass family, they can't easily do any big interval leaps or fast runs. Your horn theme simply sounds too clean.

On a brighter note, the part at the end with violin/harp/piano/bells is fantastic! To be perfectly honest it sounds ten times more mature and well-arranged than the preceding music. Unfortunately it isn't really fitting for Wesnoth (I think)

I assume that this isn't finished, so I'll refrain from any lengthy and in-depth comments right now. For all I know, in a week or two you might delete this song and change the original post to some entirely new piece of music again, so I'll wait a while...