The King is Dead

Post by **West** » November 10th, 2007, 8:40 pm

Thank you guys. It means a lot to me that you like it, as I know you normally aren't shy about pointing out problems. Actually I'm quite happy with this piece myself, even though there's still a number of things that need fixing. For once it feels like I've managed to write something consistent, something that moves from point A to point B in a logical, sensible manner instead of taking a big musical detour.

vonHalenbach wrote:You made it more interesting with the flute playing.

Not quite sure what you mean. I changed the flute melody at 1:32 slightly, and if that's what you mean -- yes it does sound a lot better now

hiro hito wrote:this triangle could be back in final part but maybe not too loud

Sure, I'll give it a try.

hiro hito wrote:and often rain stick can make good transition too...)

Rainstick, eh? I don't think I have a rainstick sample though.

Aleksi wrote:Just one little thing that bothers me at 03:28 min, it seems like one note doesn't belong in the harmony. There is some friction here.

Yeah, well the ending is a mess ATM, so you're probably right. In fact, I *think* I know what you mean without even listening to the piece. I'll have a look at it.

Post by **vonHalenbach** » November 10th, 2007, 9:54 pm

West wrote:Thank you guys. It means a lot to me that you like it, as I know you normally aren't shy about pointing out problems. Actually I'm quite happy with this piece myself, even though there's still a number of things that need fixing. For once it feels like I've managed to write something consistent, something that moves from point A to point B in a logical, sensible manner instead of taking a big musical detour.

vonHalenbach wrote:You made it more interesting with the flute playing.
Not quite sure what you mean. I changed the flute melody at 1:32 slightly, and if that's what you mean ...

Yes, exactly. Even those little alterations can have a big impact on the whole piece. You made it slightly more complex, but not complicated. Just right to keep the listener interested.

West wrote: ... yes it does sound a lot better now

You have no problem at all with being too shy.

hiro hito wrote:this triangle could be back in final part but maybe not too loud

You mean it should be transmitted from the beginning to the end, to make the end more interesting?

hiro hito wrote:and often rain stick can make good transition too...)

WTF is a rainstick? Something magic to make the weather?I have to google it.

hiro hito · Post by **hiro hito** » November 10th, 2007, 10:08 pm

vonHalenbach wrote:
hiro hito wrote:this triangle could be back in final part but maybe not too loud
You mean it should be transmitted from the beginning to the end, to make the end more interesting?

hiro hito wrote:and often rain stick can make good transition too...)
WTF is a rainstick? Something magic to make the weather?I have to google it.

About the triangle, I suggest that it could re-appear at the end. I think it's good where it is (but maybe less loud as West said), but if it appears at the end too it could be nice cause it will be a kind of "rythmic gimmick" (dont know if it's an english expression). But maybe it's a very bad idea... tough in music everything is possible until we have a try and the idea....!

about rainstick. It's not use in orchestral music so much..but it can give very good ambience!

Post by **West** » November 11th, 2007, 1:42 am

vonHalenbach wrote:Yes, exactly. Even those little alterations can have a big impact on the whole piece. You made it slightly more complex, but not complicated. Just right to keep the listener interested.

So true! But, for me, changes like that is nothing that can be forced. I can't sit at the keyboard thinking "hm, what if I change the rhythm of... etc", I have to hear it. Today when I sat down to work on the piece, it was suddenly obvious to me that the end of that flute phrase should be in a triplet feel rather than straight eighth notes. I couldn't understand why I hadn't realised it before. I shudder to think what other stuff I have yet to realise...

vonHalenbach wrote:You have no problem at all with being too shy.

Normally I do; I still have a long, long way to go when it comes to orchestral music and I try not to be cocky about it. But when I hear that something sounds a lot better than before, I see no reason not to be proud of the improvement.

hiro hito wrote:but if it appears at the end too it could be nice cause it will be a kind of "rythmic gimmick" (dont know if it's an english expression).

Not a common expression, no, but it's perfectly clear what you mean. A "rhythmic theme" that reoccurs the same way as a melody on a melodic instrument would. Makes perfect sense, and not an uncommon thing in orchestral music (or other types of music for that matter).

hiro hito wrote: It's not use in orchestral music so much..but it can give very good ambience!

The rainstick is a cool -- if very limited -- instrument. In fact, I'm not sure if I would actually call it an instrument at all; it's more like a sound effect device. But it's great for adding a primitive, tribal feel to a song. Goes well with bullroarers, digeridoo's and African percussion

Temuchin Khan · Post by **Temuchin Khan** » November 11th, 2007, 8:27 pm

West wrote:I'm getting closer to a final version. Structurally everything's pretty much finished, but it still needs some additional fine tuning and embellishments here and there, particularly towards the end. And that damn triangle is too loud and in your face.

There might be some very slight clipping in places, sorry about that.

And BTW, it would be nice to get some official comment on this piece. I still don't know if there's any need for music like this in the game.

This is definitely getting better. I like, in particular, some of the minor rhythmical adjustments that you've made here and there. At the same time, it is true that the ending, and the transition leading into it, need some work.

Post by **West** » November 13th, 2007, 5:22 am

Almost there. The violins at the end are still not fixed and there's a couple of places where the dynamics are weird, like some instruments kind of "ducks" for no reason (i.e. their volume suddenly drops off). I'm gonna go through the song from beginning to end and fix all the little details once everything's in place.

I also added a little trumpet thing at the end, for a little regal flair, but I realised while mastering the song that it sounds like something out of a Spaghetti Western

edit: BTW, sorry hiro hito, I didn't use the triangle again for the finale. It just sounded too much considering that there's already a snare, a bass drum, a cymbal and timpani playing in unison.

hiro hito · Post by **hiro hito** » November 13th, 2007, 7:45 am

I still like it!

About the trumpett: spaghetti westerns are one of my favorite movies (especially Siergo Leone's movies/ Ennio Morricone's music) so it doesnt boring me. But are there 2 trumpetts or another instrument who double the trumpett? If yes are they sync? Or maybe just the end of phrase are not ending at the same time, I don't know if it's good....

Post by **West** » November 13th, 2007, 7:54 am

hiro hito wrote:I still like it!

About the trumpett: spaghetti westerns are one of my favorite movies (especially Siergo Leone's movies/ Ennio Morricone's music) so it doesnt boring me. But are there 2 trumpetts or another instrument who double the trumpett? If yes are they sync? Or maybe just the end of phrase are not ending at the same time, I don't know if it's good....

I have nothing against Spaghetti Westerns or Morricone, far from it. I'm just concerned that the phrase doesn't really fit in. After all it's a fantasy game, not a Western:)

The instruments you hear are a trumpet section and a solo trumpet playing harmonies and and no, they aren't perfectly in time. I wasn't sure the trumpet thing would work so I just recorded it quickly and sloppily. If I decide to keep it (or something similar) I will of course clean it up.

Temuchin Khan · Post by **Temuchin Khan** » November 14th, 2007, 12:44 am

West wrote:
hiro hito wrote:I still like it! :D

About the trumpett: spaghetti westerns are one of my favorite movies (especially Siergo Leone's movies/ Ennio Morricone's music) so it doesnt boring me. But are there 2 trumpetts or another instrument who double the trumpett? If yes are they sync? Or maybe just the end of phrase are not ending at the same time, I don't know if it's good.... :hmm:
I have nothing against Spaghetti Westerns or Morricone, far from it. I'm just concerned that the phrase doesn't really fit in. After all it's a fantasy game, not a Western:)

I can understand your doubts. At the same time, though, I think that the trumpet adds something. I'd suggest keeping it.

Post by **Rain** » November 24th, 2007, 2:01 am

Great work West!

I am all for leaving the Morricone phrasing in. It's fantastic. There is enough fantasy in the piece overall to keep it leaning towards Wesnoth's style.

Post by **West** » January 22nd, 2008, 11:42 pm

(thank you Rain -- better late than never

)

Finally a new version; I decided to let this piece and Minstrels rest for a while. It's usually easier to hear what needs fixing in a tune if you stay away from it for some time, and I'm happy to say that I didn't find anything that sounded completely off. Thus there's only some minor changes to the arrangement.

Sorry about using some lame file upload service but for some reason I can't access my webhost's ftp ATM.

Post by **vonHalenbach** » January 23rd, 2008, 12:53 pm

This piece is still endlessly awsome to listen to and i consider it almost finished.

It has only an annoying part between 0:44 and 1:22. In this part the triangle and the drum should be either removed completly or replaced with any other instrument, which plays in the background. EDIT: Maybe you could use the trumpet with a very sad tune (not in the same rythem like the rest of the music), far away in the background?

Only refinement between 0:44 and 1:22. The rest is (almost) perfect.

Post by **West** » January 23rd, 2008, 7:58 pm

vonHalenbach wrote:This piece is still endlessly awsome to listen to and i consider it almost finished.

Thank you. And yes, it's virtually finished, aside from a few small tweaks.

vonHalenbach wrote:In this part the triangle and the drum should be either removed completly or replaced with any other instrument, which plays in the background. EDIT: Maybe you could use the trumpet with a very sad tune (not in the same rythem like the rest of the music), far away in the background?

Remove the percussion altogether and add a trumpet? I would rather not, I like it the way it is. I can't really hear anything wrong with it. Anyone else find the triangle and timpani annoying?

Temuchin Khan · Post by **Temuchin Khan** » January 23rd, 2008, 8:52 pm

West wrote:Remove the percussion altogether and add a trumpet? I would rather not, I like it the way it is. I can't really hear anything wrong with it. Anyone else find the triangle and timpani annoying?

Personally, I see no problem with the triangle and the timpani. I think it's fine.

Post by **vonHalenbach** » January 23rd, 2008, 9:24 pm

I did not say, to completly remove all traces of the timpany and triangle from this song. I just find the "boombadadaboom" between 0:44 and 1:22 a bit dull. I think it would be worth to replace them with a trumpet to pep it up a bit. The strings alone would not be enough, so there needs to be something added to them. Or maybe instead of the trumpet a deep cello?

Temuchin Khan wrote:
West wrote:Remove the percussion altogether and add a trumpet? I would rather not, I like it the way it is. I can't really hear anything wrong with it. Anyone else find the triangle and timpani annoying?
Personally, I see no problem with the triangle and the timpani. I think it's fine.

For me this is really an issue. It is disturbing like hell. Does nobody else hear it? Please give your feedback!