A game idea I'm toying with, but will probably never see.

[TheGreatRings]

We've had a topic or two recently on the pros/cons of extremely open-ended or random games. Now, I feel that a certain amount of direction is nessisary, but in theory I approve of the goal of creating more open-ended games that give a player the freedom to explore and shape a world. I am also intrigued by the idea of cross-genre games, particularily games that combine the RPG, Strategy, and Tactical genres.

So here's what I'd like to see: a detailed world, complete with its own history, religions, creatures, economy, and political factions. These would be AI controlled (a highly intelligent AI is critical). The player would start as an ordinary person in this world, and would be free to explore it as they chose. The player could act as a mercenary, train to be a wizard, join the army of whatever faction they were "born" in, or start a business. Over time, they could meet various NPCs, and amass wealth, fame, knowledge, and political connections. They could choose which faction to join, or build their own faction. If a player rose high enough, they could command armies or even entire nations. At which point the game would become more strategic. Their would be one or two goals that a player would have to complete to win, or possibly multiple different ways to win. However, the player could also choose to just explore, and to keep playing past the point of victory.

So, three questions: are their any games like this, is such a game possible, and would you play it if it were made? If I had the time, money, or skill, I would give it a shot, but I doubt I'll be able to until I'm done with university, at least.

[thespaceinvader]

Holy crap, that's ambitious. Such games exist, but as far as I am aware, they are, without exception, MMOGs. EVE Online, for instance, has a mechanic much like you describe, although it's future rather than medieval.

Doing this all with AI in single player would probably require better AIs than ANYONE has made to date, let alone than you could make in your spare time on your own. Or it would require a fairly large amount of scripting rather than truly free play.

[TheGreatRings]

Holy crap, that's ambitious. Such games exist, but as far as I am aware, they are, without exception, MMOGs. EVE Online, for instance, has a mechanic much like you describe, although it's future rather than medieval.

Actually I'd suggest it as a Star Wars game if not for the bloody copyright issues.

Doing this all with AI in single player would probably require better AIs than ANYONE has made to date, let alone than you could make in your spare time on your own. Or it would require a fairly large amount of scripting rather than truly free play.

It doesn't have to be completely free play. And I don't demand true brilliance from the AI, just the vauge perception that it knows what its doing.

What's important is that the AI be able to control its armies, pursue its agendas, but then gradually hand over more control to the player as they rise through the ranks. Think of the AI as king, and the player as a soldier rising to knight, then captain, then general, and ultimately perhaps king, if the player follows that path.

Edit: I'd like to have a fully realized, to actual scale world as well. Not nessissarily great graphics; if the setting and game play are good I've never needed great graphics. But I'd like to see a world, to scale, that's several hundred miles across, with an appropriate number of inhabitants for its size. It would have seasons, days and nights, weather, and an economy. Obviously this would be very complex, but right now I'm just thinking about what I'd like to see. What's possible may not be the same.

[Jodwin]

So, three questions: are their any games like this, is such a game possible, and would you play it if it were made? If I had the time, money, or skill, I would give it a shot, but I doubt I'll be able to until I'm done with university, at least.

I think it would be possible, it would just be a ridiculously huge job to do. Even if it was created with just ascii graphics it would take ages to all the stuff alone...but yes, possible.

But what I actually wanted to mention is that personally I wouldn't want to play a game like that...allow me to elaborate: I'm sure not everyone designing RPGs thinks this way, but lately I've been seeing this trend to more and more open ended games (I blame MMORPGs...). It would seem like developers think that everyone wants to have a completely open ended experience where the player actually creates the game. But this isn't true, not everyone wants that. There are plenty of people who would rather have more "directed", as you said, games with even thin plot lines to give some sort of a purpose for the game and set the player on his course. Mind you, one of my favourite computer RPG games is Exile 3 by Spiderweb Software, in which the player is simply told to go outside to the surface and explore. It's not much and the game starts very open ended, but if the player hadn't been given any direction in the beginning I probably would have never bothered. Sometimes even the most seemingly insignificant things matter...

If I happen to ask myself while playing an RPG "Why am I (my character) doing this?" I want to be able to answer that question.

Anyway, yeah, I just wanted to remind anyone who might be reading this topic that not everyone wants completely open adventures.

[TheGreatRings]

So, three questions: are their any games like this, is such a game possible, and would you play it if it were made? If I had the time, money, or skill, I would give it a shot, but I doubt I'll be able to until I'm done with university, at least.

I think it would be possible, it would just be a ridiculously huge job to do. Even if it was created with just ascii graphics it would take ages to all the stuff alone...but yes, possible.

Then I sit back and hope someone with the means to realistically accomplish it does it first, I guess.

But what I actually wanted to mention is that personally I wouldn't want to play a game like that...allow me to elaborate: I'm sure not everyone designing RPGs thinks this way, but lately I've been seeing this trend to more and more open ended games (I blame MMORPGs...). It would seem like developers think that everyone wants to have a completely open ended experience where the player actually creates the game. But this isn't true, not everyone wants that. There are plenty of people who would rather have more "directed", as you said, games with even thin plot lines to give some sort of a purpose for the game and set the player on his course.

I actually believe that's in line with what I said. A detailed setting, a backstory, and one or two basic goals to accomplish to win.

Mind you, one of my favourite computer RPG games is Exile 3 by Spiderweb Software, in which the player is simply told to go outside to the surface and explore. It's not much and the game starts very open ended, but if the player hadn't been given any direction in the beginning I probably would have never bothered. Sometimes even the most seemingly insignificant things matter...

The Exile games are pretty good, and actually to some extent an inspiration as to what I'd like to see. Though they can get quite repetative if you're not good. You know, playing the same battle over and over.

If I happen to ask myself while playing an RPG "Why am I (my character) doing this?" I want to be able to answer that question.

Anyway, yeah, I just wanted to remind anyone who might be reading this topic that not everyone wants completely open adventures.

I agree. I just want to give the player a certain level of flexibility, the choice of how they play the game, etc.

[Dveman115]

Dwarf fortress fulfills several of your requirements. The big landscape. Etc. etc.

[Dave]

a highly intelligent AI is critical

You might as well say, "I really want to make an expensive and rare piece of jewelry for my girlfriend......a space craft that can travel to distant stars to collect gemstones not found on earth is critical..."

[LemonTea]

a highly intelligent AI is critical

You might as well say, "I really want to make an expensive and rare piece of jewelry for my girlfriend......a space craft that can travel to distant stars to collect gemstones not found on earth is critical..."

Nay, I say it's better to chemicially synthesise it on Earth, use nuclear reactions to create any necessary elements not found on earth, to use chemical reactions to create the jem. Physical conditions difficult to achieve on Earth (e.g. Temperature of 5x10^12 K and pressure of 2.563x10^64 Pa) must also be artificially maintained.

Any 'game idea' which needs perfectly logical, realistic worlds that the AI needs to create and maintain, should just, you know, give it a while...

[Skizzaltix]

Or wait until we create a real* AI
*An AI such that a human can carry on two conversations, one with it, and one with another human, and not be able to reliably tell which interlocutor is the computer.

Anyway, I'm going to go with the "would work better as an MMO" movement. In fact... What if you were to do away with victory conditions altogether? Give the player an introduction to the world, and then tell them to have fun. Whoever has the most fun wins
Not to say I don't like games with clear goals... Although, I do prefer games that give you an end goal and then let you figure it out from there--Like Metal Gear Solid (And Seiken Densetsu in the RPG genre).

[TheGreatRings]

Or wait until we create a real* AI
*An AI such that a human can carry on two conversations, one with it, and one with another human, and not be able to reliably tell which interlocutor is the computer.

Obviously a way off.

Anyway, I'm going to go with the "would work better as an MMO" movement. In fact... What if you were to do away with victory conditions altogether? Give the player an introduction to the world, and then tell them to have fun. Whoever has the most fun wins

Except that, as I believe has already been mentioned, some of us enjoy having at least a basic sense of purpose or direction in a game. And secondly, a lot of online gamers are, for lack of a more polite word, idiots.

Not to say I don't like games with clear goals... Although, I do prefer games that give you an end goal and then let you figure it out from there--Like Metal Gear Solid (And Seiken Densetsu in the RPG genre).

Agreed.

[faring]

I remember playing an RPG once which was really open (sorry cant remember the name) and you are left with no idea of what to do.. also if you wandered a bit you got brutally murdered by strong things

I definately prefer having some kind of storyline
Edit: I still have it on my shelf, it's called Gothic 3 but he name isn't really important - I need a storyline of some kind to enjoy an rpg

[TheGreatRings]

I remember playing an RPG once which was really open (sorry cant remember the name) and you are left with no idea of what to do.. also if you wandered a bit you got brutally murdered by strong things

Well, getting randomly killed at the beginning isn't most people's idea of a fun game. My idea would of course have lots of enemies roaming around, but it should include warnings of some sort to keep players from going into a dangerous area without knowing they were risking an ass-kicking.

I definately prefer having some kind of storyline
Edit: I still have it on my shelf, it's called Gothic 3 but he name isn't really important - I need a storyline of some kind to enjoy an rpg

Define "storyline". Is it enough simply to have a backstory to develope the setting and an ultimate objective or two to achieve, with perhaps a few hints to help the player along? Or do you need a detailed plot with everything basically scripted in advance, to the point where you're acting out a movie? Or somewhere in between?

[Skizzaltix]

Crystal Chronicles is a fairly good example of an open-ended RPG, actually--There is only one ending, but there is no linear storyline. The plot is advanced by way of random encounters with other travelers
Though, I did find that Crystal Chronicles, unfortunately, lacked the storyline-impact to drive me through to the end in one go, so maybe it's not a great role-model.

[faring]

somewhere in between
it should be fairly linear at the start so you can learn whats going on and so you dont go out of your depth too quickly
I also think there should be some kind of hint that you are going somewhere full of strong enemies like you've mentioned but it doesnt need to physically stop you going there like in most rpgs
maybe like a kind of dark ominous feel or a character that warns you of the dangers
also you need to feel like the character has an objective of some sort (why can't he stay in the village and take up farming for example what makes him keep going?) and hints on how to accomplish that objective - if there are multiple ways it only needs to hint at one for those who are really confused as to what they should do
if I recall correctly in gothic 3 you had to find 10 fire chalice things and defeat some guy but you had no idea where to begin your search there were no hints at all.. they were somewhere in the world

[Midnight_Carnival]

So here's what I'd like to see: a detailed world, complete with its own history, religions, creatures, economy, and political factions. These would be AI controlled (a highly intelligent AI is critical). The player would start as an ordinary person in this world, and would be free to explore it as they chose. The player could act as a mercenary, train to be a wizard, join the army of whatever faction they were "born" in, or start a business. Over time, they could meet various NPCs, and amass wealth, fame, knowledge, and political connections. They could choose which faction to join, or build their own faction. If a player rose high enough, they could command armies or even entire nations. At which point the game would become more strategic. Their would be one or two goals that a player would have to complete to win, or possibly multiple different ways to win. However, the player could also choose to just explore, and to keep playing past the point of victory.

Just a comment, why spend your time programming? you could do that stuff in real life - it would be fun.