more branching for northerners!

[xtifr]

Turin: that made perfect sense to me. And, in fact, if the l3 units are done reasonably quickly, I'll be able to incorporate them into my own campaign, and get it somewhat balanced before it even goes public, which would be nice. And the alternate l2's shouldn't affect the balance so much, so I won't need to do much REbalancing after that. You've won me over.

Sangel: I'm with you all the way on avoiding code changes. But I'd still rather have the alternate l2 grunt get at least three impact hits, to distinguish it even more from the trolls. I dunno, I'll think some more about it. Adding slow and/or ranged is definitely an interesting suggestion.

[Sangel]

Well, if you want to incorporate the Nightstalker, the graphics can be found in this topic, along with a surprising level of consensus that it should be included.

Regarding a slaver: Distinguishing the Slaver from the Warrior is, in my mind, more important than distinguishing it from the Troll. The Slaver would have numerous dissimilarities to the Troll already; it would by definition be similar to the Warrior. Besides, 3 attacks with slow is very potent; that almost assures slowing even on hard-to-hit targets (as the Assassin has proved with poison).

[quartex]

The artwork for the level 3 orcish slurbow did exist, but was lost in the server crash. If anyone has it, it would be great if they could post it in the "unit thread" at the top of the art development forum.

[Jetrel]

The artwork for the level 3 orcish slurbow did exist, but was lost in the server crash. If anyone has it, it would be great if they could post it in the "unit thread" at the top of the art development forum.

I have it, but as neo said himself, it's not quite up to snuff for inclusion. I'm going to polish up the graphics, but even disregarding that, I think we should muse over the fate of orcish archery first - if we include it as-is, it would just be too strong. People had agreed with my want to include the unit, however, I think that if we do so, we should reexamine the stats of the entire line.

Right now, orcish crossbowmen are hideously powerful - keep in mind that unlike elvish archers, they get a chaotic bonus. This combined with attacks on a unit weak to pierce means that two level-2 orcish crossbowmen can bring down a Grand Knight in one turn, with a smidge of luck.

That just shouldn't happen.

Not only that, though, the orcish crossbowmen are very powerful in melee, relative to, say, elves.

We really need to pull the focus of the orcish faction back to being a primarily melee faction - an orcish commander should normally have good reason to hire *mostly* grunts, just like an elvish commander has good reason to hire *mostly* fighters and archers.

Special units should not be really common on the field compared to core units. We enforce this by proper balancing, and careful application of weakness to units - two factions which I think are a good example of this are the loyalists and rebels. Both of these factions would not work well at all if the player chose to hire only mages or only woses, for example.


Anyways, I really want to be careful to make the orcish bowmen out to be things that are cheap, and weak. Orcs should be able to get a lot of archers, but they should all really suck compared to an elvish archer, or even a human archer.

My vision of the orcs is of swarms of weak, decrepit goblins supporting smaller groups of big, strong melee warriors. The big warriors form the bulwark of strength, and the goblins sacrifice themselves to keep the big guys alive. The goblins should be cannon-fodder, at a level that no other race has.

If we do put in the orcish slurbow, it should be relatively weak compared to other races, and should be much harder to get. Meanwhile, it should be much easier for orcs to get good melee troops.

[Elvish_Pillager]

If we do put in the orcish slurbow, it should be relatively weak compared to other races, and should be much harder to get. Meanwhile, it should be much easier for orcs to get good melee troops.

For one thing, we should add the Direwolf Rider. We already have graphics, stats, etc, all we need to do now is halve the Goblin Knight's required XP.

[xtifr]

I'm not thrilled by the notion of an orcish slaver. Seems to me like orcs are more interested in killing than capturing. They have goblins to handle the dirty work (not that I expect they have much need for cleaning/housekeeping). The only thing they need humans/elves/dwarves for is to fill their stewpots. In fact, even though all I've got for my campaign so far is a general plot outline and the bare beginnings of an opening scenario, I'd already have to make changes if that assumption isn't true. (I've been planning to feature the word "stewpot" heavily in my dialogs. )

I agree that slow and three hits would probably be too much for the alt l2 grunt, but I'd rather see the three hits than the slow. I'm not adamant on that, but it's a strong preference. The orcs already have one unit that has slow, and I think that's probably enough.

I agree with pretty much everything Jetryl said. Orcs should be all about the up-close-and-personal combat. That's partly why I've been so obsessed with the alt l2 grunt in these discussions. I really think it's the most desirable missing piece. I will, however, gladly snarf the nightstalker that sangel pointed to, just for the fun of it.

Anyway, I'm really happy with the way this discussion has gone so far, and I'd like to thank all of the participants. I think we're starting to get somewhere. Obviously, the biggest need (as always) is for more artwork, but it helps to know what artwork might be needed, and I think we're starting to get a handle on that.

cheers

[aelius]

I'm still a fan of some sort of Orcish Bodyguard as a branch of the grunt line. It'd be akin to the Dwarvish Guardsman with a catch.

He's steadfast, but his primary attack is a charge attack (dealing impact damage) called "sheild crush" or something. His hitpoints don't increase much from the grunt, and his attack isn't much stronger.

When used defensively, he's solid and hard to overcome. Offensively, he's a gamble. If you get lucky, the shield blow could do lots of damage, but it also opens him up to four times the damage he'd recieve defending.

I think he'd present lots of interesting tactical possibilities and challenges.

- b.

[Draconio]

The bodyguard idea sounds quite interesting to me.

[Breeblebox]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Goblin Rouser is still floating around in the _mostly_ artless ether. If someone wanted to have a decent go at him, we would have an alternative branch for the Spearman.

[Elvish_Pillager]

He's steadfast,

That's the reason I don't like him. Steadfast shouldn't become too widespread.

[aelius]

Two units in two factions is too widespread? When one of them is a branching level two upgrade? There may be reasons not to like the idea of an Orcish Bodyguard (i.e the difficulty of balancing a unit with such different attack and defense behaviours), but I wouldn't put that up there.

- b.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Two units in two factions is too widespread?

Three units. The Merman Hoplite has it too. And there's been more other suggestions than just this one.

[aelius]

Fair enough. A dwarvish unit, a level three upgrade of a merman, and a level two upgrade of an orc. That doesn't see too many for my tastes. Heck, Fencers and Saurians both have skirmish! And they're both level one.

I still maintain that a steadfast unit with a charge attack would be really really tactically interesting.

- b.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Fair enough. A dwarvish unit, a level three upgrade of a merman, and a level two upgrade of an orc. That doesn't see too many for my tastes. Heck, Fencers and Saurians both have skirmish! And they're both level one.

Yes, but--- Skirmish is a unique ability, so it deserves some usage. Steadfast just effects damage, and it's a very powerful ability, and the Dwarves could really benefit from an ability that other factions don't get so much, so it should be limited a bunch. Charge, too, although Charge could be used a little more than it is now.

I still maintain that a steadfast unit with a charge attack would be really really tactically interesting.

- b.

Maybe, but for the Orcs? Why the Orcs?

[aelius]

For whom else would you suggest it? The Grunt line needs a branch, I think, and as it stands, most of the northerner units just get more damage as they get bigger. I think that they lack a unit with good defensive staying power, and that a unit like this would be tactically interesting. You could use it to slow down the pace of combat, or if you so desired, gamble and attack with it.

Why not the northerners?

- b.