Let Skeletons resist Fire?

[Elvish_Pillager]

All-faction weaknesses are the worst things factions can have. Drakes are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to pierce and cold. Undead are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to fire and impact.

So, I siezed on two of their less powerful units --- the Skeleton and Skeleton Archer --- and found a way realism supported me. Burning bones is hard! Why do you think burning bodies often results in charred bones? It's because the bones didn't burn so much! So, obviously realism supports me when I say Skeletons should be hard to burn. Now for gameplay: Factions can't be balanced if they're universally weak to a damage type, especially if it's a type not all other factions have. Many of the people who've complained that Undead are weak cited their fire weakness, and they have a valid point. A faction with a universal weakness will either be weak, due to their weakness, or overpowered in all other areas, as the Drakes are and the Undead were. (The Undead are now only overpowered in some other areas.) So, if/when the Undead are balanced, they will be weak. That must be countered! There is the gameplay reason this should be done.

Now, for the specifics: Change the fire resistance of the 'skeleton' movetype --- wait, there is no 'skeleton' movetype --- so, either create one, or simply add 'fire=70' to the skeletons' [resistance] tags.

Yes, I think 30% is a good amount of resistance. It's not like bones can't be burned, after all...

[Tomsik]

I Agree

[Shade]

I'd support something like this. Hmm, maybe just making them fire neutral, or 10% resistant... But I am a conservative old fart

[Dragonking]

I disagree.
Look at skeleton resistances: 40% blade, 60% pierce & cold, weak against impact and holy. And you want add more resistances? Whit what I would have to fight with them? Elves have now mages - to reach far battlefields, after change I will have to recruit woses before game to not let skeletons take 3/4 of the map.

Same with drakes. They have ONLY fire to deal with skeletons quick enought to have chance to kill adept which stands behind skeleton before he will freeze them. Of coure you can count Glider as unit with impact, but IMO it's a little bad warrior.

Ok - northeners have trolls - but was always problem to be fast enought with them to not let enemy gain advantage by taking better posiotins on map (look above).

Loyalist - mages + infantry untill your change - later ONLY slow again infantry - or you want to pierce skeletons to death with spearmans...

Knalagans doesn't have this problem - they don't have fire dmg and they are able to fight with skels without problem (hammers/thugs etc).

So I think: Let Skeleton be Skeleton - and don't overpower him too much. Or give him resistance and incrase cost to 25 I think if you all think that skeletons are really so weak, then decrase fire resistant a littne - not too much - IMO -10% is enought (at most 0% but I prefer -10%)

[Noy]

All-faction weaknesses are the worst things factions can have. Drakes are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to pierce and cold. Undead are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to fire and impact.

So, I siezed on two of their less powerful units --- the Skeleton and Skeleton Archer --- and found a way realism supported me. Burning bones is hard! Why do you think burning bodies often results in charred bones? It's because the bones didn't burn so much! So, obviously realism supports me when I say Skeletons should be hard to burn. Now for gameplay: Factions can't be balanced if they're universally weak to a damage type, especially if it's a type not all other factions have. Many of the people who've complained that Undead are weak cited their fire weakness, and they have a valid point. A faction with a universal weakness will either be weak, due to their weakness, or overpowered in all other areas, as the Drakes are and the Undead were. (The Undead are now only overpowered in some other areas.) So, if/when the Undead are balanced, they will be weak. That must be countered! There is the gameplay reason this should be done.

Now, for the specifics: Change the fire resistance of the 'skeleton' movetype --- wait, there is no 'skeleton' movetype --- so, either create one, or simply add 'fire=70' to the skeletons' [resistance] tags.

Yes, I think 30% is a good amount of resistance. It's not like bones can't be burned, after all...

Umm weren't you the one that was saying that the Undead were the strongest faction? and now you're advocating removing another of its weaknesses, and this is supposed to redress an unbalancing issue? Yeah, really great idea (insert sarchasm). Hey while we're at it lets remove crushing damage as well.

[Ankka]

And EP is wrong, drake clashers have more pierce resistance than other drakes.

burning bones can be hard... but WINR and like DK said there isn't much to fight them with this change.

[Dave]

I agree that factions which have a single weakness throughout the faction is a bad thing, which is precisely why I don't like the idea of single-race factions: it makes it difficult for the factions to be diverse.

Anyhow, an alternative to this which I have thought of for a while would be to add a new unit to the undead: a 'flame wraith'. Basically a wraith-like being that is permanently on fire; I think Neorice drew a good sprite for one. It'd attack with fire, and obviously have very strong resistance to fire.

David

[turin]

IMHO, factions, in addition to not having entire-faction weaknesses, should not have entire-faction strengths. So, the new skeleton movement type (for skeleton, skeleton archer, and upgrades) should be weaker to blade. Otherwise, the majority of units, which use blade, are basically useless against the undead.

I think the idea of a "flame wraith" is interesting... any that's all I'm going to say about it. ;]

[Elvish_Pillager]

And you want add more resistances? Whit what I would have to fight with them?

Impact units. Y'know, the units that deal the damage type that the whole Undead faction is weak to.

Same with drakes. They have ONLY fire to deal with skeletons quick enought to have chance to kill adept which stands behind skeleton before he will freeze them. Of coure you can count Glider as unit with impact, but IMO it's a little bad warrior.

Skeletons are weak. They have the lowest HP of any L1 fighter and their attacks are not strong. Even with 20% resistance, they have less effective HP on average than your average fighter.

What's more, the Adepts --- the only real reason you've stated that Drakes would fear Skeletons --- are overpowered.

So I think: Let Skeleton be Skeleton - and don't overpower him too much. Or give him resistance and incrase cost to 25 I think if you all think that skeletons are really so weak, then decrase fire resistant a littne - not too much - IMO -10% is enought (at most 0% but I prefer -10%)

Well...

So, the new skeleton movement type (for skeleton, skeleton archer, and upgrades) should be weaker to blade. Otherwise, the majority of units, which use blade, are basically useless against the undead.

Turin is right --- we can remove that pesky blade resistance, which has been a problem for a long time. We can make the Undead diverse.

Due to conservatism, I suggest a reduction of Skeletons' Blade resistance to 20%.

And EP is wrong, drake clashers have more pierce resistance than other drakes.

They're still weak to it. Even though their resistance to it is 0%, they resist other stuff enough that it's one of their lowest resistances, and thus it's a weakness.

Anyhow, an alternative to this which I have thought of for a while would be to add a new unit to the undead: a 'flame wraith'. Basically a wraith-like being that is permanently on fire; I think Neorice drew a good sprite for one. It'd attack with fire, and obviously have very strong resistance to fire.

[Deathtenks]

Um no the Clasher lowest resistence is "Cold" So that is it's Weakness....


But I like this idea....Make Undead diverse and not the Hoarde and crush faction....Well keep them that just make them more diverse about it

[romnajin]

I am against skeletons being resistant to fire, but I am for them being nuetral to it. Have you ever picked up one of those charred bones? Not very strong is it?

[Monkey]

All-faction weaknesses are the worst things factions can have. Drakes are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to pierce and cold. Undead are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to fire and impact.

No, saurians aren't weak to pierce; dark adepts and necromancers aren't weak to fire and impact.

[turin]

All-faction weaknesses are the worst things factions can have. Drakes are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to pierce and cold. Undead are incredibly annoying because every last one of their units is weak to fire and impact.

No, saurians aren't weak to pierce; dark adepts and necromancers aren't weak to fire and impact.

But saurians ARE weak to cold, IIRC. So there is still a problem there.

And dark adepts are support units, not really suited to front linesmen. You can't exactly put up a wall of dark adepts in the front line to defend against a bunch of heavy infantry or woses, and there's not really a unit you can put there, except the corpse. Which dies, but is so cheap it doesn't matter.

[Monkey]

It doesn't make what he said right.

[romnajin]

He meant in GENERAL