What to do about level 3 units

[autolycus]

I think EP is asking "what does autolycus's patch solve?". It doesn't seem to solve anything...

I think it does. It allows scenario makers to make Lvl3 units very powerful or not. Consider an implementation in every Lvl 3 unit can get 5 hp for every 100 xp as many times as the value of the variable.

If the variable is set to '0' as a default, and a campaign designer increments it by +1 every scenario end, by the start of scenario 6, Lvl 3 units can get +1 x 5 = 5 bonuses. Each bonus is 5 hp for 100 xp, so if the unit has 500 xp after Lvl3, it has 25 hp more.

If the campaign designer sets this always to +0 (or omits it), then Lvl3 units never get bonuses. If the campaign designer varies the increment, he can control the rate at which a Lvl3 unit can progress.

For example, take a campaign in which the first 7 scenarios are S1, S2, S3, S4, S5 (in which the hero gains a powerful source of unit enhancement), S6, S7. Designer sets the variable increments as +0, +0, +0, +0, +4, +2, +1. For the first 5 scenarios, all Lvl3 units will never gain bonuses. They are 'Wesnoth-default'. But in S6, they are possibly +4 incremented, which allows the 'conversion' of 400 xp into 20 hp. In S7, they are now possibly +6 incremented. And if there is a final S8, they might be +7 incremented (35 extra hp).

So are those Lvl3 units still useless? I don't think so. If you implemented a 100 xp = (5 hp and 2 melee damage) version, it would be terrifying.

Point is, if you have a standard advancement variable, designers could do what they wanted with it, and everyone would know where it was and how the incrementing was done in a given campaign. And if you omitted it, the default would be zero and we would have default Wesnoth.

[Dacyn]

It allows scenario makers to make Lvl3 units very powerful or not.

They can already do that ,but why would they want to make them powerful?

[autolycus]

It allows scenario makers to make Lvl3 units very powerful or not.

They can already do that ,but why would they want to make them powerful?

so we can have big powerful end-of-campaign battles!!!

[Dacyn]

so we can have big powerful end-of-campaign battles!!!

um... right.

[Bablefish]

Wow this really got away from the original idea I had... All I wanted was something to have reason for continual use of level three units.

First of all I think the idea of units advanceing to level 4 is a bad idea, as was posted earlier, the point of Wesnoth is to create a well balenced army, not a few super units.

Second I do think that there has to be something done to give a reward for using level 3 units, something that is meaningfull, but not over changeing. Personally I think that giving X Hp per 100 experience, is not worth it, you will just have people spending great amounts of time trying to get the most powerful unit that they can, instead of playing the game like it should be played

In light of this, and other suggestion that I cant remember, I will once again post my original idea: giving level three units the ability to reach a certain XP and then healing up all of the way, to there max HP.

I also thought of another idea, one that actually encorages the use of level three units, because they would help level up level 1 and two units.

When a level three unit attacks, instead of out right killing the enemy unit, that unit has the option of hurting the enemy unit down to 1 hit point (lets just say we call this ability "mercy") This will allow level one and two units a route for leveling up quickly. Note that this would be restricted to level three units only (and of corse level for in the great mage case)

My two cents

[turin]

and the reply to the original post was that the Xp-gives-full-hp idea was already used, as a specialty, for the necrophage. why must you suggest it again?

i don't like this 'mercy' idea. realism reason: you're not going to suddenly be able to stop your swing halfway so it barely doesn't kill him. gameplay reason: way too overpowering, makes it much easier to level, and would also be annoying when you actually wanted him to get the kill.

[Bablefish]

First, I said the OPTION of killing the unit, there could be a prompt that says "Do you want to kill this unit?" As for stop swinging in the middle of battle, a unit that is level three, should have enough previous knowledge to know when someone is criticaly wonded, and would stop.

As far as too easy to level up units, is not that the point of the game? To level up units and use stratagy to kill the enemy. I am mainly giving an extra stragaty point to be used to accomplish this task

My two cents

[Invisible Philosopher]

to have reason for continual use of level three units.

That is against how Wesnoth is. Wesnoth is not an RPG. You should usually be training up new units.

However,
Level three units can already save you a lot of money - get a powerful unit for only 20 gold! That can be your reason to use them, although the high upkeep is annoying; that's why the loyal trait is so good.

Also, because they can't get any better, they're good units to sacrifice in an effective place (especially the end of a campaign, when you won't need them later). There are some places where a L3 unit can be much more effective than a weaker one. You may send off a L3 unit to delay and damage a group of enemies, when it would take a considerably larger (and more costly) force to either fight off the enemies itself or allow your L3 unit to get out alive. And of course they may survive in some situations if you're lucky.

And don't forget leadership! That ability helps units level up. Also they can be used as a risky way to weaken an enemy to gain XP from it (they might kill it, but they might not.)

[Dacyn]

Wow this really got away from the original idea I had... All I wanted was something to have reason for continual use of level three units.

exactly my point.

When a level three unit attacks, instead of out right killing the enemy unit, that unit has the option of hurting the enemy unit down to 1 hit point (lets just say we call this ability "mercy") This will allow level one and two units a route for leveling up quickly. Note that this would be restricted to level three units only (and of corse level for in the great mage case)

This does make sense realistically IMO; otherwise how can you explain Li'sar's surviving The Princess of Wesnoth? Gameplay wise, it decreases both the strategy and luck involved in who gets the kill; Wesnoth is about both. UI-wise, it adds another option for the user: not good. But if it was implemented I think the unit should just stay alive at negative HP instead of going up to 1.

[Dave]

Something I don't understand is people who are paranoid about 'wasting' experience, and wanting to only use units that can actually advance further.

To me, the best way to 'waste' experience is to sit all your experienced units on the sidelines while your inexperienced units do the fighting. That's far more 'wasteful' in my mind than getting a unit more experience than it needs.

However largely for this reason, I think that max-level units still improving mildly with experience could work well: it will reduce the number of people who ruin the game for themselves by worrying about whether they are 'wasting' experience. The benefit doesn't have to be large, just enough to make people feel that the experience isn't completely wasted.

IMO good game design analyzes the game both in the strictly mathematical sense, but also analyzes the psychology of the players, to make the game the most fun for them, even if the difference is small in gameplay terms.

David

[Bandobras]

To me, the best way to 'waste' experience is to sit all your experienced units on the sidelines while your inexperienced units do the fighting. That's far more 'wasteful' in my mind than getting a unit more experience than it needs.

You don't understand the greedy mind. The "sidelines" is your jewel-pouch. You stuff your pouch more and more and you feel better, more and more. You don't need to use the units, you just gather more and more. At the end of the week (the final battle of the campaign, or better the random campaign battles you export your army to) you show off your precious army gliterring in the sun.

I agree, I am sick , but the cure is not the current rules (you cannot polish the jewels, so you only gather more and more --- boring), but some form of AMLA (whatever you do, you always either improve or gather, so you are actually free to play the game ). I know Wesnoth is not concentrated on economy (gold+XP management), but on tactics, however I think it is possible to remove the notorious contradiction between the tactics and economy. Unit upkeep is not a contradiction, it is a trade-off. Cannon-fodder is not a contradiction, it is a sacrifice. However enjoing the death of your allies (so they do not steal XP) is a contradiction (this one not cured by AMLA, but by scenario tweaking). So is the fact that no sane (nor greedy) person will use a Lancer in the first few levels of a long campaign (AMLA helps). So is the notorious sending of your most powerfull unit (Delfador) to scout villages instead of fighting, as well as the attitude "it is close to the end of the scenario, so instead of butchering the enemy with my 3rd level boss, I will let the crowd of my 1st level units on him --- most will die, some will gain XP".

I don't propose to turn Wesnoth into RPG/Freeciv, because I like these kinds of games (I do ). I only ask that the economy part is either removed, or made consistent, so that I can actually concentrate on tactics, strategy, plot, etc.
Thank you for your understanding.

Bye

[turin]

I disagree. Giving AMLA will not improve use of lancers etc; the point of those kind of units (2nd level branch as opposed to a 3rd level branch) is to deal a lot of damage but take a lot of damage. Implementing AMLA will not help them; it will just make it more frustrating when they inevitably die while dealing massive amounts of damage.

And as for trees that end at 2nd level with NO 3rd level branches, i think the solution is not AMLA but adding a 3rd level. AMLA will not make the units more appealing because even with it, they will be worse than almost all 3rd level units.

[Dacyn]

The "sidelines" is your jewel-pouch.

This is the main problem with a recall list, IMO.

whatever you do, you always either improve or gather

Or your lvl 3s die.

[Dave]

To me, the best way to 'waste' experience is to sit all your experienced units on the sidelines while your inexperienced units do the fighting. That's far more 'wasteful' in my mind than getting a unit more experience than it needs.

You don't understand the greedy mind. The "sidelines" is your jewel-pouch. You stuff your pouch more and more and you feel better, more and more. You don't need to use the units, you just gather more and more. At the end of the week (the final battle of the campaign, or better the random campaign battles you export your army to) you show off your precious army gliterring in the sun.

See, this is horridly wasteful! Any money manager would just about have a stroke at this attitude

But....I do understand the mindset.

I agree, I am sick , but the cure is not the current rules (you cannot polish the jewels, so you only gather more and more --- boring), but some form of AMLA (whatever you do, you always either improve or gather, so you are actually free to play the game ).

Yes, I agree with you.

Some players, such as yourself, are 'collectors'. One of your main aims is to 'collect' a set of nice, powerful units.

I think that having mild max-level advancement would make the game more fun for players such as yourself, and for that reason I think it should be included.

David

[Bandobras]

Or your lvl 3s die.

I'm a collector of the brave kind. I will readily risk all my jewels to get that one pearl, the most beautiful in the world.

Implementing AMLA will not help them; it will just make it more frustrating when they inevitably die while dealing massive amounts of damage.

For my "collector" mindset loss is not such a frustration, when I know I lost while trying to improve my collection. What is unbearable is a nonsensical, continuous waste.

You know, a game is a kind of cheating. I tell myself that I need to win this scenario, so that I improve my army. And I need to improve my army so that I am able to win the next scenario. And then I need the next victory to improve my collection, which I need in order to win the subsequent battle, and so on. This way I keep being realy involved. (Until I'm very tired, at which point the main motivation becomes that the glorious end of the campagin is closer and closer. ) Death of a unit does not break this chain of alternating gathering and spending (risking). What breaks the chain is a contradiction between the two goals. If (in a campaing favouring horse units) by briliantly and quickly winning a scenario with a host of knights and paladins I ruin my chances of winning the campaign, I'm out. The non-RPG style of army development should be imposed by scenarios (maps demanding various and numerous units and plot pointing to such demands in futures scenarios) and not by rules limiting collection to the most boring kind (more and more identical units). Better remove collection all toghether and all scenarios would start with a fixed army. I guess I would like such Wesnoth. Really. It is a really nice game.

And as for trees that end at 2nd level with NO 3rd level branches, i think the solution is not AMLA but adding a 3rd level.

As a humble (and currently retired) player, I nevertheless strongly oppose. Length 2 (and length 1) trees provide a welcome variety (and moreover they give to newbes the feel of playing with maximally grown-up units, like the real players do ). More importantly, without them leadership is useless on any level, on which you cannot afford fresh recruits (time/cash/keep size/etc.).

AMLA will not make the units more appealing because even with it, they will be worse than almost all 3rd level units.

The poll about lancers suggests, short tree units can be quite popular. They enable leadership, have less upkeep, and can have special bonuses (outlaw's defence, triton's swimming (I know, I know ;<), thug's impact damage).