What to do about level 3 units

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autolycus
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Post by autolycus »

I don't know, but on reflection, this whole level3 topic is becoming a bit like early D&D - if you had a paladin, he got all the way up to 9 hit dice and then got a constant +3 hp for each level. Mages had +1. And so on. That's OK for a long-running RPG, but for Wesnoth, which started out as a pretty straightforward game with campaign characteristics more like Panzer General, it seems a bit iffy. Do-able for longer campaigns, but iffy.

Maybe you could have a growth limit tied to the number of scenarios a unit had survived. For example, in every scenario in a campaign, increment a variable for each surviving unit on the board. When that unit 'levels up' beyond 3, use the variable to improve it. So if a unit survived 10 scenarios in a campaign, it might be given a maximum hp improvement of +10 if the variable was +1 per scenario.

This would allow crude but easy customization for scenario developers who wanted to give simple rewards. A scenario developer in a brutal campaign might increment the scenario variable by +2 or more to vary the reward for surviving specific scenarios.

This would also keep simple Wesnoth battles or campaigns simple. Just don't put the scenario variable in, or set it to 0, and there'd be no advancement beyond 3.
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turin
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Post by turin »

More options are bad. If that occurs, i can't compare strategy cross-campaign, because there will be different rules in different campaigns. Also, i won't be sure of the rules for the campaign unless i look at the WML files, or it is displayed somewhere in-game, which would just highlight the fact that there are multiple games being played.


this is also the basic argument against deterministic mode, if anyone was wondering...
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Bandobras
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Post by Bandobras »

I'm against cusomization, too. I would very much like uniform rules in all Wesnoth games and I even detest any forking of unit data (except adding heros and plot-specific monsters).

I'm currently playing 5HP/100XP for testing purposes only. After AMLA is accepted (or rejected) I will switch to the offical form or stop playing Wesnoth altogheter. (Already I play very little, there is so much more fun in arguing on the forum :) ). I hope Dave will pick all that is good from our ideas and brand it with his own brillance. And I hope we will quickly be able to start balancing this by testing.
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

autolycus wrote:I don't know, but on reflection, this whole level3 topic is becoming a bit like early D&D - if you had a paladin, he got all the way up to 9 hit dice and then got a constant +3 hp for each level. Mages had +1. And so on. That's OK for a long-running RPG, but for Wesnoth, which started out as a pretty straightforward game with campaign characteristics more like Panzer General, it seems a bit iffy. Do-able for longer campaigns, but iffy.

Maybe you could have a growth limit tied to the number of scenarios a unit had survived. For example, in every scenario in a campaign, increment a variable for each surviving unit on the board. When that unit 'levels up' beyond 3, use the variable to improve it. So if a unit survived 10 scenarios in a campaign, it might be given a maximum hp improvement of +10 if the variable was +1 per scenario.

This would allow crude but easy customization for scenario developers who wanted to give simple rewards. A scenario developer in a brutal campaign might increment the scenario variable by +2 or more to vary the reward for surviving specific scenarios.

This would also keep simple Wesnoth battles or campaigns simple. Just don't put the scenario variable in, or set it to 0, and there'd be no advancement beyond 3.
What an incredibly good idea.
LordTobias
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Post by LordTobias »

Yeah, just like Jetryl, I think autlycus probably has the best idea. You don't have to send out your level 3 units to devestate the entire enemy forces -- you just have to keep them alive. That really does make a whole lot more sense. You can further advance your non-maxed out units, as well.

But, given that excellent idea from autolycus...here's another question proposed: I made mentioned of some other possibilities to increase things. Any ideas on that, or should it just be hit points?
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Autolycus's idea DOES NOT solve the problem, namely that XP for L3 units is useless.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Autolycus's idea DOES NOT solve the problem, namely that XP for L3 units is useless.
assuming that is a problem...
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quartex
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Post by quartex »

Elvish Pillager wrote:Autolycus's idea DOES NOT solve the problem, namely that XP for L3 units is useless.
It's supposed to be useless. All we're arguing about it whether we should make it a experience beyond level 3 a tiny bit useful or make it completely useless. Either way leveling other units will help you more overall. But part of the game design is to have decreasing returns after your max out at level 3. That's not going to change.
miyo
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Post by miyo »

I see that 3rd level units are powerful as they are - there is no need to make them more powerful... to not waste your xp you must have some fresh units. It is up to you if you want to waste the xp or feed on it.

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Post by Dacyn »

I think EP is asking "what does autolycus's patch solve?". It doesn't seem to solve anything...
tkilian
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Post by tkilian »

Isn't the overall goal to build a really strong army, and not just a couple of invincible forces?

Once I have units completely leveled up, I generally don't recall them as much, trying more to level up lower units. I usually recall a couple of advanced units to make sure i can get through tough battles, but my strategy is to do most of the battle with units in need of XP.

I find the bigger problem is that many level 3 (or higher) units are too powerful. I would prefer if they would just mortally wound opponents, and then let other units come in and clean up. Instead many just obliterate whom ever they are fighting.
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

That's if you send out Deflador to Deflate them, but he's a level 5 godmoding unit so ofcourse it's hard to get exp if you fight with him.
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Post by Invisible Philosopher »

tkilian wrote:Isn't the overall goal to build a really strong army, and not just a couple of invincible forces?

Once I have units completely leveled up, I generally don't recall them as much, trying more to level up lower units. I usually recall a couple of advanced units to make sure i can get through tough battles, but my strategy is to do most of the battle with units in need of XP.

I find the bigger problem is that many level 3 (or higher) units are too powerful. I would prefer if they would just mortally wound opponents, and then let other units come in and clean up. Instead many just obliterate whom ever they are fighting.
Yes, I agree with all your points. Then in the last few scenarios you get to recall your powerful level 3 units. So there shouldn't be any after-max-level improvement. It would need to be really small, and people would still feel that their XP was wasted. Either that, or they would play with too many level 3 units even more than I did when I wasn't as good at playing.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Neoriceisgood wrote:That's if you send out Deflador to Deflate them, but he's a level 5 godmoding unit so ofcourse it's hard to get exp if you fight with him.
he's level 5... but really he's only as good as the archmage, which is level 3.

a 14-4 attack is really not that great for a mage if thats its only decent attack...
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Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

You forget the fact that it gets special light effects.
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