What to do about level 3 units
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I don't know, but on reflection, this whole level3 topic is becoming a bit like early D&D - if you had a paladin, he got all the way up to 9 hit dice and then got a constant +3 hp for each level. Mages had +1. And so on. That's OK for a long-running RPG, but for Wesnoth, which started out as a pretty straightforward game with campaign characteristics more like Panzer General, it seems a bit iffy. Do-able for longer campaigns, but iffy.
Maybe you could have a growth limit tied to the number of scenarios a unit had survived. For example, in every scenario in a campaign, increment a variable for each surviving unit on the board. When that unit 'levels up' beyond 3, use the variable to improve it. So if a unit survived 10 scenarios in a campaign, it might be given a maximum hp improvement of +10 if the variable was +1 per scenario.
This would allow crude but easy customization for scenario developers who wanted to give simple rewards. A scenario developer in a brutal campaign might increment the scenario variable by +2 or more to vary the reward for surviving specific scenarios.
This would also keep simple Wesnoth battles or campaigns simple. Just don't put the scenario variable in, or set it to 0, and there'd be no advancement beyond 3.
Maybe you could have a growth limit tied to the number of scenarios a unit had survived. For example, in every scenario in a campaign, increment a variable for each surviving unit on the board. When that unit 'levels up' beyond 3, use the variable to improve it. So if a unit survived 10 scenarios in a campaign, it might be given a maximum hp improvement of +10 if the variable was +1 per scenario.
This would allow crude but easy customization for scenario developers who wanted to give simple rewards. A scenario developer in a brutal campaign might increment the scenario variable by +2 or more to vary the reward for surviving specific scenarios.
This would also keep simple Wesnoth battles or campaigns simple. Just don't put the scenario variable in, or set it to 0, and there'd be no advancement beyond 3.
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
More options are bad. If that occurs, i can't compare strategy cross-campaign, because there will be different rules in different campaigns. Also, i won't be sure of the rules for the campaign unless i look at the WML files, or it is displayed somewhere in-game, which would just highlight the fact that there are multiple games being played.
this is also the basic argument against deterministic mode, if anyone was wondering...
this is also the basic argument against deterministic mode, if anyone was wondering...
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I'm against cusomization, too. I would very much like uniform rules in all Wesnoth games and I even detest any forking of unit data (except adding heros and plot-specific monsters).
I'm currently playing 5HP/100XP for testing purposes only. After AMLA is accepted (or rejected) I will switch to the offical form or stop playing Wesnoth altogheter. (Already I play very little, there is so much more fun in arguing on the forum ). I hope Dave will pick all that is good from our ideas and brand it with his own brillance. And I hope we will quickly be able to start balancing this by testing.
I'm currently playing 5HP/100XP for testing purposes only. After AMLA is accepted (or rejected) I will switch to the offical form or stop playing Wesnoth altogheter. (Already I play very little, there is so much more fun in arguing on the forum ). I hope Dave will pick all that is good from our ideas and brand it with his own brillance. And I hope we will quickly be able to start balancing this by testing.
What an incredibly good idea.autolycus wrote:I don't know, but on reflection, this whole level3 topic is becoming a bit like early D&D - if you had a paladin, he got all the way up to 9 hit dice and then got a constant +3 hp for each level. Mages had +1. And so on. That's OK for a long-running RPG, but for Wesnoth, which started out as a pretty straightforward game with campaign characteristics more like Panzer General, it seems a bit iffy. Do-able for longer campaigns, but iffy.
Maybe you could have a growth limit tied to the number of scenarios a unit had survived. For example, in every scenario in a campaign, increment a variable for each surviving unit on the board. When that unit 'levels up' beyond 3, use the variable to improve it. So if a unit survived 10 scenarios in a campaign, it might be given a maximum hp improvement of +10 if the variable was +1 per scenario.
This would allow crude but easy customization for scenario developers who wanted to give simple rewards. A scenario developer in a brutal campaign might increment the scenario variable by +2 or more to vary the reward for surviving specific scenarios.
This would also keep simple Wesnoth battles or campaigns simple. Just don't put the scenario variable in, or set it to 0, and there'd be no advancement beyond 3.
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Yeah, just like Jetryl, I think autlycus probably has the best idea. You don't have to send out your level 3 units to devestate the entire enemy forces -- you just have to keep them alive. That really does make a whole lot more sense. You can further advance your non-maxed out units, as well.
But, given that excellent idea from autolycus...here's another question proposed: I made mentioned of some other possibilities to increase things. Any ideas on that, or should it just be hit points?
But, given that excellent idea from autolycus...here's another question proposed: I made mentioned of some other possibilities to increase things. Any ideas on that, or should it just be hit points?
"Never argue with an idiot -- they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience... Never argue with me -- I'll drag you down to my level and fuckin' beat you to death!"
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assuming that is a problem...Elvish Pillager wrote:Autolycus's idea DOES NOT solve the problem, namely that XP for L3 units is useless.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
It's supposed to be useless. All we're arguing about it whether we should make it a experience beyond level 3 a tiny bit useful or make it completely useless. Either way leveling other units will help you more overall. But part of the game design is to have decreasing returns after your max out at level 3. That's not going to change.Elvish Pillager wrote:Autolycus's idea DOES NOT solve the problem, namely that XP for L3 units is useless.
Isn't the overall goal to build a really strong army, and not just a couple of invincible forces?
Once I have units completely leveled up, I generally don't recall them as much, trying more to level up lower units. I usually recall a couple of advanced units to make sure i can get through tough battles, but my strategy is to do most of the battle with units in need of XP.
I find the bigger problem is that many level 3 (or higher) units are too powerful. I would prefer if they would just mortally wound opponents, and then let other units come in and clean up. Instead many just obliterate whom ever they are fighting.
Once I have units completely leveled up, I generally don't recall them as much, trying more to level up lower units. I usually recall a couple of advanced units to make sure i can get through tough battles, but my strategy is to do most of the battle with units in need of XP.
I find the bigger problem is that many level 3 (or higher) units are too powerful. I would prefer if they would just mortally wound opponents, and then let other units come in and clean up. Instead many just obliterate whom ever they are fighting.
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Yes, I agree with all your points. Then in the last few scenarios you get to recall your powerful level 3 units. So there shouldn't be any after-max-level improvement. It would need to be really small, and people would still feel that their XP was wasted. Either that, or they would play with too many level 3 units even more than I did when I wasn't as good at playing.tkilian wrote:Isn't the overall goal to build a really strong army, and not just a couple of invincible forces?
Once I have units completely leveled up, I generally don't recall them as much, trying more to level up lower units. I usually recall a couple of advanced units to make sure i can get through tough battles, but my strategy is to do most of the battle with units in need of XP.
I find the bigger problem is that many level 3 (or higher) units are too powerful. I would prefer if they would just mortally wound opponents, and then let other units come in and clean up. Instead many just obliterate whom ever they are fighting.
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
he's level 5... but really he's only as good as the archmage, which is level 3.Neoriceisgood wrote:That's if you send out Deflador to Deflate them, but he's a level 5 godmoding unit so ofcourse it's hard to get exp if you fight with him.
a 14-4 attack is really not that great for a mage if thats its only decent attack...
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
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