Anyone ever done a level 0 horseman?

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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I'm in two minds - i'd like for there to be a student mage, but i'd also like the mag line to issue off a common level 0 line with some other units. If there was a level 0.5 it would be useful, but there isn't...

EDIT: I just think it makes more sense for the mage line to issue off a common beginning than for it to have its own level 0 specifically for it. None of the others under this system would...
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Post by Aethaeryn »

I just realized that our lvl 0 tree leaves out one important human - the thief. I think that the thief should come from the townsman, not the ruffian, due to differences in damage type and the fact that the "thief" is more of a city-themed robber instead of the rural-themed thug/footpad/poacher.

I still think there will be some problems having a decent combat unit without a ranged magic attack to turn into the mage. Perhaps there should be some kind of magical trainee who could become mage, shadow mage (optional, see the campaign Liberty for it being used), or dark adept? Kind of fits if you know the backstory to Descent into Darkness, where the main character did not become a full mage and then got corrupted into necromancy.
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I agree on the thief. And using the Mage, Shadow Mage AND Dark Adept coming off the initiate/baby mage/scholar would be fine - i didn't like it sourcing just one unit, rather than not liking it full stop - i like the idea of interlocking trees - they just seem mor realistic, rather than having trees which can only branch one way IYSWIM.
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Post by Dave »

irrevenant wrote:This actually seems like a variant of the "More units should go up to level 3+" FPI. Just because a couple of lines have been given L0 units doesn't mean it's ideal to "fill out" all the lines. There's a dynamicism that comes from having uneven unit trees.
On the other hand though, as soon as a unit has a level 4 advancement, if you're making a campaign you have to allow and plan for the level 4 advancement. (Unless you're going to make your own units).

With level 0 units though, no-one has to use them who doesn't want to.

On the other hand, horses were very expensive and thus generally reserved for elite and well trained soldiers. It seems unlikely mounted units would fight alongside units such as 'peasants'.

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Post by irrevenant »

Dave wrote:On the other hand though, as soon as a unit has a level 4 advancement, if you're making a campaign you have to allow and plan for the level 4 advancement. (Unless you're going to make your own units).
With level 0 units though, no-one has to use them who doesn't want to.
While this is true, surely the addition of new, cheap units tilts the gameplay?

One of the defining features of the Undead faction is its comparatively unique ability to send waves of ultra-cheap units. If anyone can do it, the balance shifts and Undead's uniqueness is lessened.
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Post by Dave »

irrevenant wrote:
Dave wrote:On the other hand though, as soon as a unit has a level 4 advancement, if you're making a campaign you have to allow and plan for the level 4 advancement. (Unless you're going to make your own units).
With level 0 units though, no-one has to use them who doesn't want to.
While this is true, surely the addition of new, cheap units tilts the gameplay?

One of the defining features of the Undead faction is its comparatively unique ability to send waves of ultra-cheap units. If anyone can do it, the balance shifts and Undead's uniqueness is lessened.
Sure but only if they are actually used. We don't use any of the level 0 human units in, say, Heir to the Throne, or in the default era.

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Post by irrevenant »

Dave wrote:Sure but only if they are actually used. We don't use any of the level 0 human units in, say, Heir to the Throne, or in the default era.
Okay, sounds like we're in agreement then. I thought we were talking about including them in Default...
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Post by Dave »

irrevenant wrote:
Dave wrote:Sure but only if they are actually used. We don't use any of the level 0 human units in, say, Heir to the Throne, or in the default era.
Okay, sounds like we're in agreement then. I thought we were talking about including them in Default...
No, no. Good heavens, no!
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Post by thespaceinvader »

Also: in the campaigns where they come up (Northern Rebirth and TSG) it is almost always useless to recruit them once you get the option to recruit the advancements - they simply die too easily to make them worth the gold. The only exception is recalling and levelling where possible the Loyal ones you get in TSG.
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Post by Weeksy »

I would encourage people to look at the Era of Apprentices if they can find it, it's got some nice level 0 units that level into a variety of things.
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Re: Anyone ever done a level 0 horseman?

Post by Iris »

peet wrote:Has anyone ever done a level 0 horseman?
The L3 Outlaws Pack and some campaigns that use it (don't recall names right now) have a mounted outlaw unit that is L0 IIRC.
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Just for fun, I made a model to consider that allows just a small amount of social mobility (both upwards and downwards). If you don't want the first layer of lvl 0s, then simply move the youths up to regular lvl 0, directly in line with whatever lvl 1 they correspond to (i.e. Noble Youth would be directly before Fencer).

Code: Select all

Level 0           Level 0          Level 1


              --->Woodsman-------->Poacher
             /           \
Peasant Youth---->Peasant--------->Bowman
             \           \
              \           -------->Spearman
               \
                ->Ruffian--------->Thug
                         \ \
                          \ ------>Footpad
                           \
           ----------------------->Thief
          /
Town Youth------->Townsman-------->Spearman
          \ 
           \              -------->Sergeant
            \            /
             ---->Soldier--------->Heavy Infantryman
             /
            / -------------------->Fencer
           / /
Noble Youth------>Initiate-------->Mage
           \              \
            \              ------->Dark Adept
             \
              --->Squire---------->Horseman
                        \
                         --------->Cavalryman
I think this is much more fun than wondering what a level 3 Javelineer or a level 4 Silver Mage would be.
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Post by thespaceinvader »

Agreed. The only thing i don't particularly like about that is the townsman not being an intermediate between town youth and fencer/soldier.
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Fencers, while they kind of suck in-game, are described as coming from noble backgrounds. http://zapicm.freeshell.org/dev/Duelist.html

I guess it's anyone's call if they can come from other social strata.
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Post by Aethaeryn »

Ken Oh wrote:Just for fun, I made a model to consider that allows just a small amount of social mobility (both upwards and downwards). If you don't want the first layer of lvl 0s, then simply move the youths up to regular lvl 0, directly in line with whatever lvl 1 they correspond to (i.e. Noble Youth would be directly before Fencer).

Code: Select all

Level 0           Level 0          Level 1


              --->Woodsman-------->Poacher
             /           \
Peasant Youth---->Peasant--------->Bowman
             \           \
              \           -------->Spearman
               \
                ->Ruffian--------->Thug
                         \ \
                          \ ------>Footpad
                           \
           ----------------------->Thief
          /
Town Youth------->Townsman-------->Spearman
          \ 
           \              -------->Sergeant
            \            /
             ---->Soldier--------->Heavy Infantryman
             /
            / -------------------->Fencer
           / /
Noble Youth------>Initiate-------->Mage
           \              \
            \              ------->Dark Adept
             \
              --->Squire---------->Horseman
                        \
                         --------->Cavalryman
I think this is much more fun than wondering what a level 3 Javelineer or a level 4 Silver Mage would be.
Either the thief should go straight from peasant youth and not ruffian or there should be an intermediary between town youth and thief. There should be something in between for fencer as well. Otherwise this could make a fun RPG advancement tree - pick a social class and you can become just about any unit.
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