Oceanics Faction

[Elvish Vanquisher]

Read the post!

I said HUMAN sized people with NO tail. How does this sound like a merman and it is an original idea. Maybe the mermen could have a scout like the drakes have the saurians.

[BuBu]

In the UNDER THE BURNS SUNS there are more nagas types and has one that has a mace. So that make faction with 4 starting units, so put the SEA SERPENT and the OCTOPUS, and the faction will have 6 starting units . And dont forget to remove the nagas and the mermen of other factions.

IMO i think that is little difficult to apear a art developer interesting on the idea of create a new aquatic unit.

[Elvish Vanquisher]

I thought there was a faction with those nagas sea serpent and octupus in the extended era.

[Edward V Riley]

Sea Elves

o.o

You act surprised. From what I've heard, these have already been worked on for a long time. Plus, sea elves have been in fantasy genres before, just not very often.

[CIB]

You act surprised. From what I've heard, these have already been worked on for a long time. Plus, sea elves have been in fantasy genres before, just not very often.

Sea Elves sounds a bit weird.. Elves going to live in water is as likely as humans going into water.. And I have never heard of that.

[Blarumyrran]

o.o

You act surprised. From what I've heard, these have already been worked on for a long time. Plus, sea elves have been in fantasy genres before, just not very often.

o_O all i know about sea elves is that i took them as an example when discussing the sad quality in theme and graphics of the swamp elves. if you think there are nay in development, post a link.

and being precedented in fantasy isnt necessarily a good thing.

[Edward V Riley]

Granted, I've found them boring and hard to work into quests/campaigns when I've seen them in other genres.

Someone mentioned that they were in development is why I said as much.

[Lorbi]

You act surprised. From what I've heard, these have already been worked on for a long time. Plus, sea elves have been in fantasy genres before, just not very often.

o_O all i know about sea elves is that i took them as an example when discussing the sad quality in theme and graphics of the swamp elves. if you think there are nay in development, post a link.

and being precedented in fantasy isnt necessarily a good thing.

... poor elves
they are forced to take any possible character/inhabitation
( sea-, dark-, city-, swamp-, cave-, grass-, hogwarts-elves )

[turin]

There's Sea Elves in Tolkien*, but they don't live in the sea. They just live next to it, build ships while other elves for the most part don't, and prefer the water to the other elements.

The idea of elves actually living IN the ocean is rather odd, IMO. They're no more aquatic beings than men are. But a race of elves that is mainly sea-faring might be cool - c.f. my campaign Saving Elensefar, in which the main character is a sea-faring elf named Meneldur.

Incidentally, I know no one has suggested it here, but the same goes for cave elves - it's OK to have elves make their homes in caves, but stupid to have them physiologically adapted to underground. It takes a rather long time for a species to change from an above-ground one to a below-ground one - and in the process it would change enough that there's no point still calling them elves, they'd be as similar to men as they were to elves.


*: The Teleri

[Jetrel]

What turin said about "sea elves".

Also, if one were to provide a scout for the mermen or naga, I can think of a couple very interesting options:
- Creatures similar to Sea Turtles.
- Creatures similar to Crustaceans (crabs, and other lobstrosities).
- Creatures similar to, say walruses, but with outward-pointing tusks/horns like narwhals have; something they can ram into a victim.

The reasoning is that:
- These are able to move quickly in water, especially the turtles, and are also able to move, albeit slowly, on land (an extremely important trait for a scout).
- These would have justification for interesting resistances, which would help break up the rather monotonous resistances of the naga and mermen.

Incidentally, I know no one has suggested it here, but the same goes for cave elves - it's OK to have elves make their homes in caves, but stupid to have them physiologically adapted to underground. It takes a rather long time for a species to change from an above-ground one to a below-ground one - and in the process it would change enough that there's no point still calling them elves, they'd be as similar to men as they were to elves.

An interesting fact/hypothesis is that it takes approximately a mere 10,000 years to turn a population of white people into black people, by confining their location to either an equatorial region, or a far more polar region. This of course assumes cro-magnon technology (e.g. inability to make good sun-shielding clothes), and the susceptibility to "fatalities from skin color," such as getting sunburnt to death, which would follow from low technology. For those who don't 'get' this, black skin is naturally far more resistant to sunburn and damage from UV radiation than white skin - the commonly used SPF scale on suntan lotion was designed around the paleface, and black people naturally have skin that provides something in the range of SPF 9-25. People with middling skin tones have middling resistance. And apparently there's some very occasionally lethal downside to heavy pigmentation that actually causes it to be gradually evolved out of society if there isn't a much stronger impetus like the sun making it a lifesaver instead of taker.

So in other words, if you put a race of people with ebon-black skin in a cave world for 10000 years, they'd come out pale as a sheet, and might even have pigmentless hair, to boot. Additionally, they'd probably have a high rate of colorblindness, but excellent night vision, and excellent "other senses", like smell and hearing. (We're assuming they'd be able to make some form of light, otherwise they'd go completely blind).

This is the science on humans - as for what effect this would have on fantasy races, well ... go figure.

[turin]

The question, of course, is why the hell they would have entered the caves in the first place.

[irrevenant]

And all that doesn't factor in magical influences: experiments of mad mages, Xanth-style "love springs" or just plain ambient magical energy...

[Edward V Riley]

The question, of course, is why the hell they would have entered the caves in the first place.

The reasoning to this CAN be explained the same way the Drow are explained in Forgotten Realms. THe problem with this is the Drow are definitely under copyright by TSR. Trust me, I've had to look this up for a different game. If using "dark elves" in the future(yes, I've played the campaign on 1.0 using these) you've got to walk a thin line to keep Wesnoth from being sued.

I agree there has to be a reason to enter caves. One gripe a lot of players for Runescape have is a certain dungeon, the Brimhaven dungeon, where you have to pay to get in. Once there, there are several creatures nowhere else in RS, so it's worth going. BUT, there's dogs in it. WOrse, they're aggressive dogs with just enough level(anything under half your level can't attack you in non player vs player areas) to be able to bother even the highest level attainable. They're useless to fight, drop nothing, and constantly nip at you.

The point is this: Why the hell are dogs in a dungeon...worse, a dungeon located in the jungle? Wouldn't they be cave blind by now? Not only are they in the dungeon, but also DEEP inside one.

The Forgotten Realms have never fully explained how they drow adapted to the darkness. A lot of creatures that come in from the light (I.e. fish from streams into underground lakes) lose their sight completely and have to rely on other senses.

[Zachron]

o.o

You act surprised. From what I've heard, these have already been worked on for a long time. Plus, sea elves have been in fantasy genres before, just not very often.

Like said in another post, Sea elves refer to elves that live on the sea not in the sea. The kind that swims and hase gills that appear in some fantasy settings, are called Aquatic Elves. To introduce them into Wesnoth, I'd write them in, not as offshoots of the elves, but as offshoots of the race that sired the Elves, who despite being much like the Elves, dislike being refered to as elves. I'd have them feel closer kinship with the Nagas, who, like the Elves, they share a common ancestor with. I wouldn't have them share the Naga's contempt for Merfolk, but they would dislike humans who consistantly assume that Aquatic Elves are the result of Elves intermarrying with Merfolk.

For aquatic factions to be put into place, more aquatic units have to be made. I wouldn't be too worried about making them playable in normal Wesnoth(It's only be on maps that consist of at least 35% water tiles where they would be playable against non-aquatic factions). I think they'd be best put into their own era or just made available for campaigns.

It's in aquatic campaigns and aquatic matches where I see them best played out. Marshlands, shallows, deepwater, Kelp forests, coral reefs, shoals. The ability to make more diverse aquatic terrain types, and a more diverse array of aquatic units is a must. An oceanic cavalry of some sort is a must. I'm thinking Orca Riders and Dolphin Riders for the Mermen, Shark Chariots for Nagas, Sea Turtles and Pleisiosaurs for Saurians, and Aquatic elves would have some sort of waterborne poney they ride. There needs to be a magical unit for the nagas, and the Aquatic elves should probably be lumped into another faction. (Perhaps the Saurians, with a few of their units also avilable to the Nagas.) And more aquatic monsters would also add more heroic possibilities. Giant Crab would be awsome.

[waw]

Elves... sea elves, house elves, tree elves... everything... Can I shed some light on this?

Elves come from Norse Mythology. you had Light Elves and Dark Elves. Dark Elves are dwarfs... or at least at a latter date were mixed with dwarfs.

Elves were an interesting race in Norse Mythology, basically being one step down from the gods. Tolkein drew upon this and had them basically be the oldest and the wisest of races and things.

In numerous other mythologies there are nymphs and dryads (nymphs relate to rivers and water, Dryads to trees and the like) and the Sidhe (pronounced Shee, they are the 'faeries' of Celtic mythology. No, they didn't have little wings either. They were human like and governed nature.) Yet later in the dark ages we see the emergence of Salamanders, Sylphs and their ilk to explain elemental creatures.

In moder Fantasy, Elves are generally accepted as the 'nature' race whereas Humans are the civilization race. We look at the world as our home, and the elves look at is as something they must protect.

The Elves are generally given elemental habitations (Light, Dark, SEA, earth, cave, maybe even fire and ice) because THAT race is supposed to govern over such environments. Light elves govern over good and such and the will of the gods, the dark elves are opposites, they govern over greed and ill will. Fire elves would be spirits/creatures of fire.... etc etc.

As for the adaptation into Deserts and swamps etc, I don't think they should be looked at as adaptations. That goes in line with the thinking that they moved there and eventually evolved to live there.

Instead, it should be looked at as Those elves are meant to govern over that form of nature. Understand? It depends on whether you want Elves and other races to be scientifically described or mythologically. Try not to mix the two because you can't make a sound argument with no holes. Following Mythology you basically have whatever you want, Science disregarded. We aren't trying to prove the actual existence of said creatures.


On to the topic at hand, somebody posted about human sized fish people with webbed hands. Think of the fish creatures seen in black and white movies? (From the Black Lagoon? no, that was a children's book, maybe Swamp Thing?) These are usually addressed as either Sahagin or Mermen. There is a difference. Mermen were supposed to be grotesque and hideous, completely covered with fishy scales. Merwomen/mer maids were supposed to have the upper bodies being beautiful and attractive to lure people to doom.

If you are looking at a BRAND NEW race, I would say look at shark people and other lagoonish monsters (Batman's Killer Croc or the crew from the Flying Dutchman of PotC)

Basically they are explainable. How the hell did Dragons evolve into humanoids? Why would they need that? Dragons are supposed to have great amounts of intelligence, hard scales, sharp claws, breathe fire, and can fly. Why would they need to evolve into smaller... less effective creatures?

I could tear apart all the races if given the chance, but that ISN'T the purpose here.