Red Mage Advancement Path

[Darth Fool]

perhaps a better implementation of a fire shield would be as a powerful melee weapon that was only usable in defense. This would, of course, make the mages very dangerous, because there would be no safe range to attack them at.

[Eponymous-Archon]

Wait, is teleporting gone for the archmage?

[Dave]

Wait, is teleporting gone for the archmage?

Not yet, but that is the proposal.

David

[Darth Fool]

Teleporting for a weak unit, in my opinion, is probably not too useful. I can imagine a few scenarios where it would be handy for capturing out of the way villages and then teleporting up near the front line, and in FoW it is useful to enable you to see around your otherwise abandoned villages.

[blackjack]

Some suggestions (liberally copying earlier posts - sorry if I do not name names):

At level 2, a mage can become a white mage (no change), a red mage or a silver mage.

Red mage advances to arch mage and great mage. Arch/great mage loses teleport, but gains one additional move (i.e. movement 5, same as the red mage). Great mage can gain a fire shield ability. Essentially, when attacked with melee, great mages defend with a more power fire-based melee defense. Not sure if we should make it dependent on the power of the attack.

Essentially, the archmage is worse off, but the great mages become very very powerful.

Silver mage has a impact rather than fire based ranged attack, though it is still magical. We might want to give them one extra move, and make them about as powerful as a red mage (maybe slightly less, but in general impact is better resisted by many troops than fire).

Silver mage advances to Quicksilver Mage. A quicksilver mage can teleport, and still has fast movement. Slightly more powerful than a silver mage, and slightly more powerful than a red mage (though less so than an archmage). I also don't mind if quicksilver mages get flying, or more movement.

(we can add gravy abilities like that silver/quicksilver mages cannot be slowed, but I don't think that is needed. Won't affect the campaign much, as you rarely fight slowing opponents)

Any comments?

[Eponymous-Archon]

I have to say that I find the archmage powerful only with teleporting, because he's otherwise too slow. With teleporting, he's worth trying to level up to and use with really fast units (like Gryphons - which are otherwise not too appealing either).

[Dave]

Teleporting for a weak unit, in my opinion, is probably not too useful. I can imagine a few scenarios where it would be handy for capturing out of the way villages and then teleporting up near the front line, and in FoW it is useful to enable you to see around your otherwise abandoned villages.

The unit would not be 'weak', it would just not be quite as strong as the Arch Mage. Teleportation is not useful for a weak unit, and it is insanely powerful for a strong unit, so the proposal is to give it to a moderate strength unit.

I'm talking a unit with perhaps a 9-4 magical attack here. That, with 5 movement + teleportation is not a unit to be trifled with.

I have to say that I find the archmage powerful only with teleporting, because he's otherwise too slow. With teleporting, he's worth trying to level up to and use with really fast units (like Gryphons - which are otherwise not too appealing either).

Under this proposal, the Arch Mage would have his movement restored to 5, bringing him in line with most other foot units.

David

[Eponymous-Archon]

I guess I just don't find the Archmage so overwhelming as it is. As I said, allowing it to teleport makes it useful when combined with some weak units that otherwise are not so useful. What about limited its movement even more and keeping teleporting?

1. This makes fast, but weak, units more valuable.
2. It makes leveling the lower-lvl mages more rewarding. Frankly I often recruit mages just to get them up to the archmage.

[Dave]

I guess I just don't find the Archmage so overwhelming as it is. As I said, allowing it to teleport makes it useful when combined with some weak units that otherwise are not so useful. What about limited its movement even more and keeping teleporting?

1. This makes fast, but weak, units more valuable.
2. It makes leveling the lower-lvl mages more rewarding. Frankly I often recruit mages just to get them up to the archmage.

One of the motivating reasons for this change proposal is to end the paradox of the advancement of a Red Mage to be worse than a Red Mage in some ways (slower movement).

The Arch Mage wouldn't be so powerful without teleportation, but we would give it a new ability (still under discussion) to compensate somewhat.

However if you still wanted to have a teleporting mage, there would be an alternative advancement choice to the Arch Mage which would teleport.

David

[Eponymous-Archon]

I saw the earlier discussion, but I feel like teleportation compensates for the slower movement when lvl'ing up.

Glad the ability will still be there though.

[cobretti]

A possible balance would be to make teleportation cost some movement (2 or 3, for example), so the Arch/Great mage has his mobility limited but still works the old way.

I think getting a Great mage usually needs a so insanely amount of work that having him with a great attack but slow and hard to defend would discourage getting him, and better go after the White mage/mage of light. The latter heals/cures, and for the rest they would be just too similar.

[Darth Fool]

I would not remove teleporting from the arch-mage. If the desire was to have a faster unit strictly better upgrade to the red-mage then do that as its own thing. teleportation for a fast unit is a waste. Have the alternate upgrade have a powerful magical melee attack (fire-shield or somesuch) and bam, you have something to think about. The best upgrade trees are one where the choice is not obvious.

[Dacyn]

and in FoW it is useful to enable you to see around your otherwise abandoned villages.

um, I have never been able to use teleport to see around abandoned villages; has this been changed?

I would not remove teleporting from the arch-mage. If the desire was to have a faster unit strictly better upgrade to the red-mage then do that as its own thing. teleportation for a fast unit is a waste. Have the alternate upgrade have a powerful magical melee attack (fire-shield or somesuch) and bam, you have something to think about. The best upgrade trees are one where the choice is not obvious.

If the tree is changed like this, then the unit with fire shield should be called a red mage.

[Dave]

I would not remove teleporting from the arch-mage. If the desire was to have a faster unit strictly better upgrade to the red-mage then do that as its own thing. teleportation for a fast unit is a waste. Have the alternate upgrade have a powerful magical melee attack (fire-shield or somesuch) and bam, you have something to think about.

I don't think that teleportation for a fast unit is a waste. You can teleport to a village and move further out of the village in the same turn. This extends the number of hexes you can reach greatly.

In fact, I would tend to say that fast movement is even more important for a teleporting unit. Imagine how many hexes a 10 movement teleporting unit could reach!

One of the reasons I want the new unit to have teleporting instead of the Arch/Great Mage, is I think the name 'Arch Mage' best fits a unit with a huge attack, and fairly conventional combat skills, not an auxiliary unit that is used to teleport in under special circumstances.

I suppose we could have a 'Battle Mage' or 'Flame Mage' as the alternative upgrade though, and make them a good combat unit...

David

[Sangel]

I still like the fast teleporter idea. Maybe we should put the proposed "Green Mage" line to a poll and see if people would like a fast, teleporting Mage line?